Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-01-2021, 05:33 PM
 
1,584 posts, read 984,320 times
Reputation: 2609

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by malfunction View Post
Yeah, you can't trust those guys much anymore. Schilling was the only one that could have had the numbers this year. As for Clemens and Bonds, I don't see them picking up steam for next year, so they're done. And A-Rod will be one of the newest members next year, and he'd be the closest thing to going in on the first go.
A-Rod would be in without question, but he was caught using PEDs post-2004. He's dead in the water.

My guess is that David Ortiz makes a solid run towards first ballot induction. He reportedly tested positive for PEDs in the same leaked but not publicly-released testing round that supposedly named Sosa. That may or may not matter. Given how well-liked he is and the postseason narrative he has, the voters may give him a free pass.

Last edited by bachslunch; 02-01-2021 at 05:46 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-02-2021, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Phila & NYC
4,783 posts, read 3,306,942 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
If they think that, they're missing something. Smoltz and Schilling are actually pretty comparable in raw stats, but the latter has ca. 10 points of WAR on Smoltz:

Schilling: 79.5 WAR. 216-146 W-L. 3.46 ERA. 22 Saves. 3116-711 K/BB. 127 ERA+
Smoltz: 69.0 WAR. 213-155 W-L. 3.33 ERA. 154 Saves. 3084-1010 K/BB. 125 ERA+

Both were good postseason pitchers, with Schilling being a little bit better.

Smoltz was a first ballot HoF-er. Why isn't Schilling in? Both appear to be reasonable second-tier HoF pitchers.
Smoltz clearly gets the edge due to the fact he was both an accomplished starter and a closer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2021, 02:13 PM
 
1,584 posts, read 984,320 times
Reputation: 2609
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
Smoltz clearly gets the edge due to the fact he was both an accomplished starter and a closer.

Why does being a closer make Smoltz better? Note that Mariano Rivera, the best closer ever (who pitched primarily as such), ended up with 56.3 WAR. That would land him 81st among starting pitchers, around Dave Steib territory. Steib was no slouch, but he's not an elite starter, either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2021, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Phila & NYC
4,783 posts, read 3,306,942 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Why does being a closer make Smoltz better? Note that Mariano Rivera, the best closer ever (who pitched primarily as such), ended up with 56.3 WAR. That would land him 81st among starting pitchers, around Dave Steib territory. Steib was no slouch, but he's not an elite starter, either.
Not saying it makes him better. It is just a pitcher that can be successful as both a starter and a closer is unique.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2021, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
Not saying it makes him better. It is just a pitcher that can be successful as both a starter and a closer is unique.
And because of the saves, Smoltz statistically accomplished more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2021, 12:06 AM
 
1,584 posts, read 984,320 times
Reputation: 2609
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
Not saying it makes him better. It is just a pitcher that can be successful as both a starter and a closer is unique.

Dennis Eckersley and Hoyt Wilhelm say hi.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2021, 12:22 AM
 
1,584 posts, read 984,320 times
Reputation: 2609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
And because of the saves, Smoltz statistically accomplished more.
This raises an interesting question, though. How significant are saves, anyway? If wins are a vastly overrated stat to the point of meaninglessness (which is a fair argument), where does that put saves? I'm thinking even further off the chart along those lines.

I've seen the argument that many successful relievers were failed starters. Mariano Rivera couldn't cut it in the majors as a starter, for example. Not that he wasn't valuable in his way, but I'm not sure his value is equal to that of a starting pitcher. Several teams have had a round robin of closers rather than a dedicated one, but no team has gotten by without a stable rotation of starting pitchers. So the question is, how much more value (if any) did Smoltz have being a closer for a few years?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2021, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Phila & NYC
4,783 posts, read 3,306,942 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Dennis Eckersley and Hoyt Wilhelm say hi.
Both HOF'rs. Although in the case of Wilhelm not sure why.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2021, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
This raises an interesting question, though. How significant are saves, anyway? If wins are a vastly overrated stat to the point of meaninglessness (which is a fair argument), where does that put saves? I'm thinking even further off the chart along those lines.
If wins are meaningless, why throughout history do good starting pitchers (as opposed to bad ones) always have the most career wins with good winning percentages?


Not talking about a season here or there (a la Nolan Ryan in 1986), but who are all of these great/good pitchers who aren't getting their wins?


Who are the bad pitchers racking up wins with a good winning percentage and a high ERA (being as ERA doesn't mean anything, either)?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2021, 08:01 PM
 
2,000 posts, read 985,944 times
Reputation: 1509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
And because of the saves, Smoltz statistically accomplished more.
There's a saying that the closer is the team's best pitcher. Not sure how much sense that makes. It should be a team's #1 starter. Gerrit Cole and Clayton Kershaw, they are two of the best pitchers in baseball. Justin Verlander. Were they ever closers? Nah.

Closers are only useful if a team has the lead in the final inning. Can't get there without strong starting pitching.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top