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Old 02-04-2021, 05:23 PM
 
1,584 posts, read 984,320 times
Reputation: 2609

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
Good pitchers get wins, if you can't accept this, that's not my problem.

And bad pitchers like Jack Billingham can get wins too, if they pitch for good teams. Likewise, good pitchers like Lyons can struggle to win if they're on bad teams. If you can't see this, that's not my problem.
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Old 02-04-2021, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
14,705 posts, read 14,680,193 times
Reputation: 15432
Quote:
Originally Posted by arr430 View Post
By today's standards, Cobb, Ruth, Alexander, Anson would never have been admitted either. It's a Hall Of Nice Guys without Rose, McGwire, Bonds, ARod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
What did Babe Ruth and Grover Cleveland alexander do that was bad?


The 1961 book by Al Stump about Ty Cobb has been proven to be mostly fictional. Stump was a known liar and Cobb wasn't a vicious racist hated by all.
Cobb (and Speaker, Dutch Leonard & Smoky Joe Wood) were involve in game fixing in the final week of the 1919 season, and basically got away with it.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...567-story.html


Rose and the 'roid boys aren't left out because they're a-holes, they're left out because they cheated. There does seem to be a bit of grey area though with the roiders, since the league and the players' managers all purposefully looked the other way when it happened. No grey area with Rose though.
I agree Schilling should be judged by his play and not his stupid tweets/attitude. To me he's borderline but should be in...he's the Johnny Sain to the Big Unit's Warren Spahn. His stats aren't eye-popping but he does have a lot of accomplishments and is the main reason Philly won the '93 pennant and the DBacks beat the Yankees.
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Old 02-04-2021, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
Todays starters work just as hard as in the past if not more so. The median V-load of a major league fast ball has increased significantly over the past 30 years or so. They may not throw as many innings today, but they are throwing more pitches per inning. Both strike outs and walks have increased. The average ML fastball did not reach 90mph until around 2007, and has even increased since then. Back in the 1990's, pitchers that threw in the 90's were a small minority.
Yes, speed is up, but that doesn't mean they're working harder, they just developed differently. Today's guys are throwing 100 pitches and they're done. Tom Seaver and Juan Marichal were working just as hard on the mound every four days and regularly throwing way more than 100 pitches. Today's guys are doing something wrong.

Last edited by Hedonism; 02-04-2021 at 10:07 PM..
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Old 02-04-2021, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
And bad pitchers like Jack Billingham can get wins too, if they pitch for good teams. Likewise, good pitchers like Lyons can struggle to win if they're on bad teams. If you can't see this, that's not my problem.
Billingham was good enough to help good teams win and Ted Lyons was good enough to help bad teams win more than they would have without him. That's all that matters.
If you can't see that, oh well.

Last edited by Hedonism; 02-04-2021 at 09:54 PM..
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Old 02-04-2021, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
Cobb (and Speaker, Dutch Leonard & Smoky Joe Wood) were involve in game fixing in the final week of the 1919 season, and basically got away with it.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...567-story.html


Rose and the 'roid boys aren't left out because they're a-holes, they're left out because they cheated. There does seem to be a bit of grey area though with the roiders, since the league and the players' managers all purposefully looked the other way when it happened. No grey area with Rose though.
I agree Schilling should be judged by his play and not his stupid tweets/attitude. To me he's borderline but should be in...he's the Johnny Sain to the Big Unit's Warren Spahn. His stats aren't eye-popping but he does have a lot of accomplishments and is the main reason Philly won the '93 pennant and the DBacks beat the Yankees.
How about Ruth and Alexander?
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Old 02-04-2021, 11:16 PM
 
5,743 posts, read 3,616,605 times
Reputation: 8905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
What did Babe Ruth and Grover Cleveland alexander do that was bad?

.
Today's media would have skewered then for at least their alcohol consumption, real or imagined. Look what they did to John Rocker..
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Old 02-05-2021, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by arr430 View Post
Today's media would have skewered then for at least their alcohol consumption, real or imagined. Look what they did to John Rocker..
Yeah, it's a different world today ... I'd like to see some of today's media types habits exposed.
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Old 02-05-2021, 04:58 AM
 
Location: Phila & NYC
4,783 posts, read 3,306,942 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
Yes, speed is up, but that doesn't mean they're working harder, they just developed differently. Today's guys are throwing 100 pitches and they're done. Tom Seaver and Juan Marichal were working just as hard on the mound every four days and regularly throwing way more than 100 pitches. Today's guys are doing something wrong.
Of course more velocity is going to mean more wear and tear on the arm. Todays pitchers go through more intensive training regiments. Their mechanics are different. Their pitch counts not being extended are not by their choice or that they are incapable, but rather the organizations. It is called "protecting their investment".

It starts as soon as they sign. In the lower levels of the Minor leagues it is extremely rare to see a starter go more then 5 innings. It is just the style of todays game.
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Old 02-05-2021, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,465 posts, read 624,614 times
Reputation: 1933
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
Of course more velocity is going to mean more wear and tear on the arm. Todays pitchers go through more intensive training regiments. Their mechanics are different. Their pitch counts not being extended are not by their choice or that they are incapable, but rather the organizations. It is called "protecting their investment".

It starts as soon as they sign. In the lower levels of the Minor leagues it is extremely rare to see a starter go more then 5 innings. It is just the style of todays game.
Then why are they hurt so often?
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Phila & NYC
4,783 posts, read 3,306,942 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedonism View Post
Then why are they hurt so often?
Again, it goes back to velocity. Higher velocity means more stress on the arm.
There are also some that believe there is to much baseball for kids that pitch and excel at it. Kids that aspire to play beyond HS are playing ball 9 months out of the year. They are also throwing the breaking stuff at a younger age. A lot of stress put on the arm that is not fully mature.
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