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Looking at career stats in a large number of playoff games a case can be made for West, Karl Malone,Duncan and Olajuwon all being in the top 10. Jabbar, O'neil, Jordan, Bryant, Russel, Bird and Chamberlain seem like the shoe in's. I'll expand my list to 13 and include Johnson and Erving as the 'scrubs' since Magic never won a title without Kareem and Dr J's best days were really back in the old ABA when he was the ultimate highlight real that no one has come close to duplicating IMHO..
Also worthy of mention based on career stats a decent list of all time great from Robertson, Baylor, Hayes, Moses Malone, Wilkins, Havlicek and Pettit round out my all time top 20. This is tough as no Knick player made it and others like Iverson and Gervin did have the numbers. Oh well maybe Dirk, Lebron and Dwade make it down the road<g>
I was having this discussion with friends and family over the weekend. We came up with a list, and a few of these names were challenged. I put those names in bold.
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Dr. J
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Kobe
8. Russell
9. Shaq
10. Bird
It's hard to argue that Bird, Russell, or Shaq shouldn't be on this list. They have rings. But the argument was that Bill Russell was one-dimensional and dominated the sport at a time when it was not that competitive. The argument against Shaq is that he's not nearly as skilled as Olajuwon or Ewing even though he has rings. And the argument against Bird is that Dirk Nowitzki is currently better than Bird ever was, which means he has no business being on the list (assuming that Dirk is not a Top 10 player. hint: He's not).
For the most part, I agree with all 10 selections, but I wanted to hear what other people had to say about the list. How about Duncan or Karl Malone? Is there any space for Isiah? Jerry West? Elgin Baylor?
I have no idea what you're talking about when you say Bill Russell was one-dimensional and dominated the sport when it wasn't competitive:
1) The Celtics won 11 NBA titles in Russell's 13 seasons with the team. They won ZERO titles before he joined the team and didn't win another title until 5 years after he retired (and had a losing record in the season immediately after he retired).
2) Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor are all mentioned above, and all of those guys were prevented from winning NBA titles during most of Bill Russell's career because Russell's teams won almost every year. If you mention 4 guys who were contemporaries of Russell among the 15 players or so mentioned, doesn't that say that the NBA WAS competitive during Bill Russell's career? No one says (nor IMO should anyone say) the NBA wasn't competitive when Magic's Lakers teams and Bird's Celtics teams combined to win 8 NBA titles in a 9 year stretch between 1980 and 1988.
3) Bill Russell was not a one-dimensional player. He focused his talents on defense and rebounding, but people need to realize that the 1960s Celtics had a whole bunch of good offensive players and that meant Russell didn't need to score a ton of points for his team to win. Additionally, many of Russell's blocked shots were blocked in such a way that they helped his Celtics teams start fastbreaks, which obviously helped lead to a lot of points on the offensive end for the Celtics. Finally, I think I remember reading recently that Russell finished second on his team in assists pretty much every year he played, despite playing center. If a center is doing that, he's obviously making a solid contribution to his team's offense.
I'm not sure if Bill Russell was the greatest basketball player of all-time (I actually don't think he was, but he's top 3 for sure), but I do strongly believe he was the greatest team player and winner in a team sport (not just basketball) of all-time. That latter part counts for a lot when you're talking about the greatest players; it tells you, along with a number of the items I mentioned above, that Russell did a huge amount to make his teams better.
BTW, like other people I'd put Larry Bird higher on that list, definitely higher than Julius Erving (and I say that as a 76ers fan whose favorite player when I was young was Dr. J). Actually, wherever you rank Magic Johnson, you should also rank Larry Bird, like 5A and 5B. I also wouldn't rank Kobe Bryant ahead of Magic and Bird, Oscar Robertson, or Shaq.
Maybe if you are looking at longevity or influence on the game as a whole then I could see noting Dr. J but otherwise Lebron is a far better basketball player with a much bigger impact on the court.
I have no idea what you're talking about when you say Bill Russell was one-dimensional and dominated the sport when it wasn't competitive:
This was an argument against him being included in the Top 10. I never said I made that argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIP72
2) Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor are all mentioned above, and all of those guys were prevented from winning NBA titles during most of Bill Russell's career because Russell's teams won almost every year. If you mention 4 guys who were contemporaries of Russell among the 15 players or so mentioned, doesn't that say that the NBA WAS competitive during Bill Russell's career? No one says (nor IMO should anyone say) the NBA wasn't competitive when Magic's Lakers teams and Bird's Celtics teams combined to win 8 NBA titles in a 9 year stretch between 1980 and 1988.
The idea was that the League was much smaller and thus lacked the depth of today's League.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIP72
BTW, like other people I'd put Larry Bird higher on that list, definitely higher than Julius Erving (and I say that as a 76ers fan whose favorite player when I was young was Dr. J). Actually, wherever you rank Magic Johnson, you should also rank Larry Bird, like 5A and 5B. I also wouldn't rank Kobe Bryant ahead of Magic and Bird, Oscar Robertson, or Shaq.
I didn't "rank" the players. I think the numbers are throwing people off. It's just a list of the Top 10 players.
This was an argument against him being included in the Top 10. I never said I made that argument.
The idea was that the League was much smaller and thus lacked the depth of today's League.
I didn't "rank" the players. I think the numbers are throwing people off. It's just a list of the Top 10 players.
the fact that the league was smaller i think hurts the argument that it was weaker. teams could field a much better team because the league was not watered down by "spreading the wealth" of talent. think of it this way, if the nba dropped today from 30 to 15 teams (cutting it in half obviously) then players like say matt bonner would not be in the league. taking the best 210 players in teh league and spreading them out among 15 teams means teams would have better players. think about a team like miami, lebron wade and bosh, now throw in lopez, and say jameer nelson into the starting 5. or a lakers team with chris paul as the PG, and manu and duncan coming off the bench. see the talent pool is much tighter so the better players get in making the competition tougher. its like a 15 team fantasy league with no salary limits.
if you didnt rank them then it sure threw us all off.
The idea was that the League was much smaller and thus lacked the depth of today's League.
Not true, even though there are more skilled players now, they are also spread over more teams. You don't think todays players benefit by playing the Raptors, Clippers, T-Wolves, (hate to say it) and Kings? More teams, doesn't mean the competition is deeper lol. It just means there are more teams.
Not true, even though there are more skilled players now, they are also spread over more teams. You don't think todays players benefit by playing the Raptors, Clippers, T-Wolves, (hate to say it) and Kings? More teams, doesn't mean the competition is deeper lol. It just means there are more teams.
I definitely think the NBA could benefit from getting rid of 4-6 teams... Would make the competition much better. There just aren't enough talented basketball players in the world to field the current 30 team league.
We should probably just rank players with their generation... because its a can of worms comparing Russell & Wilt with Lebron & Kobe.
How many rings does Magic have? How many wins does magic have? How many points does magic have? How many MVPs does Magic have?
And Kobe is not in the top ten.
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