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Eh, this is silly. There are factors that go into Howards block #s that have been discussed ITT - I'm not sure why you are being so dismissive of them. And you are talking like Robinson had huge statistical edges, and while he does have an edge, it is not THAT large. We aren't comparing Joakim Noah to David Robinson or anything.
Yes, and I consider those factors as excuses after a certain point. I can readily accept certain changes in the game. Having said that, the great fundamental players adapt to the rules and make adjustments. If Howard cannot, don't blame the era. Every generation has a set of rules that it adheres to, Howard isn't the first, and he won't be the last. You think David Robinson didn't play by rules that differed than prior eras? It's a part of the game, always has been, always will be. Either adapt.....or don't. The onus is on Howard to make the changes necessarily to make himself more effective, the onus isn't on the NBA to institute rules to facilitate Howard's game. Adapt...or don't.
No-one said anything about huge statistical gaps, but they're there. And they're across the board.
I'm not even talking about blocks, only. I'm talking scoring, assists, steals, these are all advantage Robinson. Are these all products of era as well, or simply areas in which David Robinson is superior? At some point the era excuse becomes just that... an excuse. And just like how you said we're not talking David Robinson to Joakim Noah, I'll use a similar analogy: we're not comparing the 50's with the 2000's. Rule changes, perhaps, but we're not talking 'Wilt Chamberlain to Michael Olawakandi' differences here.
And frankly, if era is going to come into every argument, then we're pissing in the wind. We may as well shut down the thread and agree to disagree.
...After reading through everyone's posts i've come to this conclusion...It's virtually impossible to compare different era's in any sport.
A sensible conclusion. Effectively it makes any debate about players separated by, say, 15 years or so, completely moot if the rule changes and era are going to infiltrate every topic. It's totally pointless at this stage.
I'm going to ask a simple question that hopefully won't bring about points about high schools, eras, and the kitchen sink. Who is the better, more skilled, more fundamentally sound player: David Robinson, or current Dwight Howard? Let's throw the stats argument out the window, because that's becoming a boring debate.
David Robinson after 7 years, was better than Dwight Howard after 7 years( current) of NBA experience. Since they followed different paths( Robinson went through college ball, Howard jumped right to the NBA), the only way we can measure them is years experience at the NBA level. The reality is this: Howard, from the ages of 18 to 22, was playing against NBA talent. Robinson, from the ages of 18 to 22, was playing against inferior college players. So if you want to look at it from an age standpoint, Howard at 25 has 7 years of NBA experience. Robinson at 25 had 2 years of NBA experience. And you can make an argument that Howard isn't even more dominant after 7 seasons of NBA ball, than Robinson was after 2 seasons.
Have you played Basketball? Playing in high school schemes vs playing in college schemes (i.e. screens, play sets, etc) is beyond different. Now take the difference of high school schemes to NBA schemes where you now take college schemes and you take the highest talent to compete against each other. It is a way higher jump than you think. I can't think of another player than jumped from High School other than Lebron that didn't take a couple years to become dominant. KG took 4 years, Kobe took 4 years, hell even Shawn Kemp took 5-6 years.
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at the end of the day a simple 'eye-test' of both players would clearly see Robinson as the more fundamental player even after 2-3 seasons of NBA experience, compared to Howard at 7 seasons of NBA experience.
Totally agree Robinson is a more "fundamental" player. He had plenty of offensive weapons and was good on defense.
Again, Howard's offensive numbers are down for the reasons I stated earlier. Howard is a real dominant force due to his size and build, just like Shaq was. Both had fairly limited offensive games but you can't deny how dominant they are/were on the offensive end. They are quick and agile for being as large as they are. On the defensive end, Howard is a beast. He has been Defensive Player of the Year now for the third straight time (something Robinson won once).
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The fact that the NBA today isn't as good as 15 years ago for the center position gives Howard every opportunity to at LEAST post what David Robinson did in his prime. He should be AT least at 25 points a game and over 3 blocks by now, even coming out of high school ( if 'coming out of high school' is the excuse you want to keep bringing up). Why is it that Kobe Bryant and Tracey Mcgrady were averaging 27-28 points by their 5th year( guess what, they were projects making the jump from high school against terrible players too), yet Howard needs the services of Hakeem Olajuwan just to get SOME semblance of a post-game and bump his average to 22.9... blah blah blah
It doesn't give Howard the opportunity. Again the rules changed to make the game faster paced. It is a guard league. It has been that way for a while now. It is why no Center is averaging close to what prior to 95(ish) Centers were averaging. It's not because of any less talent... it's because of rules changing dealing with big men, which I feel I keep repeating for you. Bringing up Bryant and McGrady... what position do they play? Oh yeah guard.
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You know why Howard doesn't average 27-30 like David did in his prime? Because he doesn't have the offensive skill (yet) to do so over 82 games. That's why scoring is spread around a bit more on the Magic. So what he does in the future stat-wise is neither here or there, I'm not debating hypothetic, I'm dealing in the here and now. He may not be the kind of guy who averages 27/28/29 points, but you seem to be under the impression that he is. Howard is primarily a rebounder/defender; he's not the natural scorer that Shaq/Hakeem/David/Ewing was coming into the NBA and may never be. And before you bring up the 'ah he came right out of high school, so he started slower' routine, which is what I suspect you're saying, I repeat that going into his 8th season, he's had enough time to 'get it right'. It took him 6 years to seek the services of Hakeem Olajuwan in order to get some semblance of a post game, still lots of work to be done there.
Again, playoff time Howard averaged 27pts on 63% shooting, 15.5 rebounds, 1.8 blocks... including a 43 point outing in Game 1. Well he met your "27-30". It's not that he can't, it's that he wants to try to win. A team is required in order to win, not just a superstar. Lebron realized that in Cleveland.
Yes at this point Howard is beyond the "4 year of college" point, but I don't feel he is as bad as an offensive player as you and the ESPN goonies think. It's why in 2012 everyone and their mother will chasing for him. The proof is in the pudding. If he was just a terrible offensive player, he would just be another journey man like Tyson Chandler or defensive minded like Mutombo, not a guy everyone is trying to go for.
record: 7-2 Yao( well really 7-2 record in favor of Rockets over Magic, but with the above stats, I think the point's been made)
And you're trying to make the argument that Dwight matches up with the 90's best? Give reality a call, tell it you want to get in touch.
Oh so another one of those Hakeem vs Shaq deals... comparing a young almost rookie to a player in their prime... gotcha
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Wrong, Vince Carter was so much a shell of his former self last year, it's not even funny. At this stage, he's not better than Sean Elliott was, neither is Jason Richardson.
Vince (08-09 NJ): 20.8pts, 5.1reb, 4.7ast
Vince (09-10 Orlando): 16.6pts, 3.9reb, 3.1ast
Hmm... product of a system
JRich (10-11 Phoenix): 21.8pts, 5reb, 47%
JRich (10-11 Orlando): 14.4pts, 4.1reb, 43%
Again, Hmm... product of a system
In 2008, Vince dunks on people. 2009, Vince stands at the three point line and becomes complacent to shoot 3's all game. That is the difference. He has been 2 years removed from the game he used to play.
In Phoenix in 2010, JRich slashes to the hoop with a great dish from Nash. In Orlando in 2011, JRich stands at the three point line and becomes complacent to shoot 3's all game. That is the difference.
Live by the 3, Die by the 3. Their numbers don't lie.
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And the players have to go out and execute them.
Van Gundy's play book is more limited than Meyer in College Football.
Van Gundy's plays...
- Dish to Howard, Howard score
- Dish to Howard, Howard dish out, second pass, 3 point shot
- Top of the key, pick and roll with Howard
That's it. They executed it. When you know of three plays, it makes the job for the defense that much easier to guard it. Basic fundamentals.
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WHAT!? Are you saying there were no 'superstar' calls in the 90s? I'll let you clarify that before I outright bust a gut laughing. No flopping? Have you ever seen Reggie Miller?
Nowhere close to what is called today. Show me a case where a player jumped into another player in that period of the NBA. You can't. Well I can easily produce countless Pierce, Durant, etc where it did. Show me a case dealing with big guys where a guy flopped to the ground when a big man started to post up in that period of the NBA. Again, you can't. Why? The rules have changed for the worst. Thus, Superstar calls and flopping is 100x more than it ever was. Back then for the most part, it was a NO-CALL.
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Blah blah, yadda yadda? Another excuse for why Howard doesn't average as many blocks as Robinson. Here's a tip for your boy: start relying more on timing, anticipation to block shots instead of jumping out of the gym trying to block mainly on athleticism, and you won't call get so many 'poor' fouls called on you. David Robinson is a better shotblocker. Era yawn yawn era.....yawn again.....excuses. The thing with the era argument is, one can just as easily say that Robinson playing in a tougher era for centers impacted his stats as much as Howard playing in this era impacted his 'shot-blocks'.
I know you love your youtube clips. But I need to show examples...
Now the analysis... Notice the block is clean but the follow through hits Starks hands. In that decade, this was a legal block. In this decade, this is an defensive foul since you can not follow through on blocks.
Another example...
See this block by Hakeem on Robinson
Now the analysis... Notice the initial block is clean but again the follow through hits Robinson on the head. In that decade, this was a legal block. In this decade, this is a defensive foul since you can not follow through on blocks.
This is what I am explaining to you. Thus, why block numbers across the boards are down since the foul is called, negating the block.
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The 2000's is a weaker era for centers; no reasonable minded fan would say otherwise. Take David Robinson, with his skills and athleticism, and put him in this era. You think he won't average better stats than Howard? Particularly using your own logic about how the game is called today, who the hell is going to stop David Robinson today? Yao Ming before injuries totally crippled him put up 25 and 9 in 2007, David Robinson would be putting up numbers AT least consistent with his prime MVP level seasons in the mid 90's.
By your logic, his numbers should be insanely different. He plays weaker centers i.e. should be ten times easier to block their shots. Guess what? They aren't. Robinson numbers would be highly different if he played in this decade; a decade that isn't favoring Big Men at all.
As much as you bash the "small" centers of todays, those centers have the fundamentals you so favor in Robinson. Howard does just fine with them, same goes a good amount of the NBA centers and power forwards.
Again, the two decades in question have been called completely differently. This is why in my initial post I talked about Shaq. Shaq is a similiar offensive player as Howard is. Shaq played in the 90s with these guys and he did just fine. Alot of them needed help in order to guard him.
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If Howard cannot, don't blame the era. Every generation has a set of rules that it adheres to, Howard isn't the first, and he won't be the last. You think David Robinson didn't play by rules that differed than prior eras? It's a part of the game, always has been, always will be. Either adapt.....or don't. The onus is on Howard to make the changes necessarily to make himself more effective, the onus isn't on the NBA to institute rules to facilitate Howard's game. Adapt...or don't.
You do have to blame the new rules. The 90s didn't have any true rules differences than prior like the guys of today have to deal with, especially the position in question (Centers). The rules they experience didn't have any effect on how the fouls were called. Nowadays, they do.
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And frankly, if era is going to come into every argument, then we're pissing in the wind. We may as well shut down the thread and agree to disagree.
Let me be the first to welcome you to the "80's-early 90's vs These Days" thread.
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Who is the better, more skilled, more fundamentally sound player: David Robinson, or current Dwight Howard? Let's throw the stats argument out the window, because that's becoming a boring debate.
All-around Offensive: Robinson
All-around Defensive: Howard
But again, Howard limited offensive weapon doesn't make him any less dominant. This is why I used the term "All Around", speaking to the amount of ways a player could beat you.
[quote=ncopus99;19956411]Have you played Basketball?
Yes. Have you?
Playing in high school schemes vs playing in college schemes (i.e. screens, play sets, etc) is beyond different.
No kidding.
Now take the difference of high school schemes to NBA schemes where you now take college schemes and you take the highest talent to compete against each other. It is a way higher jump than you think.
I'm not suggesting it isn't a big jump. But we're not talking a guy that's played 2-3 years now. He's going into year 8. Effectively, he's at the half-way point in a typical NBA career, actually a bit more than half except his started at 18. His fundamentals should be further ahead than they are.
I can't think of another player than jumped from High School other than Lebron that didn't take a couple years to become dominant. KG took 4 years, Kobe took 4 years, hell even Shawn Kemp took 5-6 years.
KG was actually a second year all-star. Really, it's case by case. And really, there's lots of NBA players who attended college who took a few years to dominate also. It's not as though attending college equates to instant dominance at the NBA level. Actually when you think about it, most of the high schoolers that got picked went on to become prominent NBA players, some more than others of course.
Totally agree Robinson is a more "fundamental" player. He had plenty of offensive weapons and was good on defense.
That's all I really care to hear at this stage. The rest is boring back and forth ramble.
Again, Howard's offensive numbers are down for the reasons I stated earlier.
He's not as good a scorer as Robinson was. You can come up with all the reasons you like.
Howard is a real dominant force due to his size and build, just like Shaq was. Both had fairly limited offensive games but you can't deny how dominant they are/were on the offensive end.
Shaquille Oneal is in a whole nother category, to be frank. And while he came into the league as a dunker, he did expand his offensive reportoire. Howard is slowly as well, but his dominance isn't anywhere near prime Shaq's yet. Oh god, hope we're not going to have another long-winded debate on that one.....
On the defensive end, Howard is a beast.
Yes he is.
He has been Defensive Player of the Year now for the third straight time (something Robinson won once).
David Robinson's prime coincided with Hakeem, Alonzo Mourning, Dennis Rodman, Mutombo. Those are historically great defensive players he had to combat for that honor. In reality, who are the other players that could conceivably challenge Howard for the honor, that are on the level of those guys?
It doesn't give Howard the opportunity. Again the rules changed to make the game faster paced. It is a guard league. It has been that way for a while now. It is why no Center is averaging close to what prior to 95(ish) Centers were averaging.
Yao was averaging 25ppg four years ago, in this guard's league. It can be done. Perhaps that's a one-off sample size, but I believe it's simply a drought for great offensive bigmen. I serious doubt today's rules 'prevent' a bigman from being a dominant scorer. I mean Howard averaged 23 last year, with better offensive skills it's not inconceivable he could average 26-27 a game. Note I said BETTER offensive skills. These things go in circles, the 90's saw a boom in centers, and in the 2000's it's the decade of the guard.
It's not because of any less talent... it's because of rules changing dealing with big men,
Alot has to do with many of today's bigger players shying away from developing true 'bigman' type games, in favor of perimeter-based games. That's a very large part of why the 'classic' center has died.
which I feel I keep repeating for you.
You'll grow tired of repeating it before I agree with you.
Bringing up Bryant and McGrady... what position do they play? Oh yeah guard.
Point is they made a similar jump from high school to the NBA, and they made the jump to high level scorers before rule changes made it a 'guard's league'. They were much further ahead as scorers after 4-5 seasons compared to Howard's still somewhat raw offensive game( improving, albeit slowly). Perhaps they just had a natural talent for scoring that Howard does not?
As I said before, Howard may not be the kind of player to average 27-30 points a game. He may not be the kind of guy who can develop a Kevin Mchale-esque post-game. There's nothing wrong with that, if that's the case. But the excuses need to drop for why he can't score as much as David did, if it's simply a case of him not being as fundamental and talented as a scorer.
Again, playoff time Howard averaged 27pts on 63% shooting, 15.5 rebounds, 1.8 blocks... including a 43 point outing in Game 1. Well he met your "27-30".
For one round. Who was he matched against on the Hawks? 6'9 Al Horford? I sincerely hope he can post that kind of statline when he has just about every advantage in his matchup.
It's not that he can't,
Continue to believe that. You think he's intentionally holding himself back?
Yes at this point Howard is beyond the "4 year of college" point, but I don't feel he is as bad as an offensive player as you and the ESPN goonies think.
He's not 'bad' in the sense that he can't put up numbers. 20 points is 20 points. However I'd like to see him further evolve his offensive skills.
Oh so another one of those Hakeem vs Shaq deals... comparing a young almost rookie to a player in their prime... gotcha
What the heck are you talking about? Yao started in 2002. Howard started in 2004. Hakeem started in 1984, Shaq in 1992. That's not even a remotely close analogy. Nice try with that one, though. A 9 game sample, given that the two play in different conferences and would meet twice a year, is a sample size over 4 seasons. You have no response for how Yao could dominate Dwight to that extent, so you resort to an analogy that doesn't even apply. Yao and Dwight are/were( seeing as Yao's retired now) roughly similar in terms of NBA experience, separated by 2 seasons. Hakeem was in his 12th season or so compared to Shaq's 3rd, when they met in the finals. .
Vince (08-09 NJ): 20.8pts, 5.1reb, 4.7ast
Vince (09-10 Orlando): 16.6pts, 3.9reb, 3.1ast
Hmm... product of a system
If you had watched Vince in 09, and then last year, it was plainly obvious the regression. In fact, Vince Carter's 'decline' was discussed alot last year. Which is why people went crazy when he scored that 48 points. Because people were talking about how much he had fallen off.
JRich (10-11 Phoenix): 21.8pts, 5reb, 47%
JRich (10-11 Orlando): 14.4pts, 4.1reb, 43%
Again, Hmm... product of a system
Actually that only shows that he's in more of an ensemble cast in Orlando, instead of being a primary scoring option, and that he was one of several players on the pecking order below Howard. It's pretty obvious his numbers aren't going to be what they were before.
In 2008, Vince dunks on people. 2009, Vince stands at the three point line and becomes complacent to shoot 3's all game. That is the difference. He has been 2 years removed from the game he used to play.
Actually it's called getting older. Vince Carter is 35 on his next birthday. And Vince Carter has been jacking 3's for years, in fact that's long been a criticism of him that since his earlier seasons in Toronto, he settles too much for the jumper. That was WELL before he got to Orlando.
In Phoenix in 2010, JRich slashes to the hoop with a great dish from Nash. In Orlando in 2011, JRich stands at the three point line and becomes complacent to shoot 3's all game. That is the difference.
Live by the 3, Die by the 3. Their numbers don't lie.
Van Gundy's play book is more limited than Meyer in College Football.
Van Gundy's plays...
- Dish to Howard, Howard score
- Dish to Howard, Howard dish out, second pass, 3 point shot
- Top of the key, pick and roll with Howard
That's it. They executed it. When you know of three plays, it makes the job for the defense that much easier to guard it. Basic fundamentals.
I gave you advice on that earlier. Apply for the Magic coaching position, don't complain to me about your team's playbook.
Nowhere close to what is called today. Show me a case where a player jumped into another player in that period of the NBA. You can't.
I'm not sure what you mean here. You want me to find a video of a player... jumping into another player?
Show me a case dealing with big guys where a guy flopped to the ground when a big man started to post up in that period of the NBA.
Again, you can't. Why? The rules have changed for the worst.
I've never made an argument that the rules are better. I have made the argument that players need to adapt to it. If Dwight Howard wants to be a more effective defender and avoid the kinds of fouls he gets sometimes, he needs to adapt. It's not rocket science.
Thus, Superstar calls and flopping is 100x more than it ever was. Back then for the most part, it was a NO-CALL.
The superstars of the 90's got the benefit of calls. 'Tiered' refereeing has long been a part of the game. Ever hear an announcer say' oh he's a rookie, he's not going to get that call?. NBA officiating is about as uneven as it possibly gets. And it didn't just start being that way.
I know you love your youtube clips. But I need to show examples...
Now the analysis... Notice the block is clean but the follow through hits Starks hands. In that decade, this was a legal block. In this decade, this is an defensive foul since you can not follow through on blocks.
Another example...
See this block by Hakeem on Robinson
Now the analysis... Notice the initial block is clean but again the follow through hits Robinson on the head. In that decade, this was a legal block. In this decade, this is a defensive foul since you can not follow through on blocks.
This is what I am explaining to you. Thus, why block numbers across the boards are down since the foul is called, negating the block.
Except I've seen times recently where a player hits the hands after getting a clean block, and no foul call. I've also seen the call made in Robinson's era. Hey, NBA officiating can be poor very often. But despite what you're saying here, 20 years ago if you blocked someone and hit a part of their body, sometimes it was called, sometimes it wasn't. The reality is that NBA basketball is officiated very inconsistently. That's even more of an issue than rule changes.
By your logic, his numbers should be insanely different. He plays weaker centers i.e. should be ten times easier to block their shots. Guess what? They aren't. Robinson numbers would be highly different if he played in this decade; a decade that isn't favoring Big Men at all.
Again, explain to me why Yao can put 25 points in 2007. The reality is we're simply in a period where guards have taken center stage. Much of it can be attributed to the influence Michael Jordan had on today's guards, he's inspired an entire generation of guards. I seriously doubt that David Robinson would do anything less than 27 points, 12 rebounds, and 3.5 blocks in this era. Particularly in scoring, if you accept that Robinson has the scoring edge and Howard is scoring 23 a game, I fail to see why that doesn't translate to Robinson scoring a good 26-28 points today. Even by today's standards, he brought a very unique blend of skills, size, and athleticism to the table.
As much as you bash the "small" centers of todays, those centers have the fundamentals you so favor in Robinson.
Perhaps, but they're not on the same level as Robinson, or are you trying to argue that they are? Is there a problem with favoring fundamentals? Fundamental and skill is what carries you when you can't jump out of the gym anymore. See Michael Jordan from about 1995 onwards.
Howard does just fine with them, same goes a good amount of the NBA centers and power forwards.
Again, the two decades in question have been called completely differently. This is why in my initial post I talked about Shaq. Shaq is a similiar offensive player as Howard is. Shaq played in the 90s with these guys and he did just fine. Alot of them needed help in order to guard him.
You do have to blame the new rules. The 90s didn't have any true rules differences than prior like the guys of today have to deal with, especially the position in question (Centers). The rules they experience didn't have any effect on how the fouls were called. Nowadays, they do.
So you're telling me there were no real changes in the game from, say, Wilt's era to Robinson's, as it was from Robinson's to Howard's? Hell, Wilt and Robinson are separated by 20+ years. David Robinson retired only 2 years before Howard joined the league. I don't see how you can make that claim with a straight face.
Let me be the first to welcome you to the "80's-early 90's vs These Days" thread.
[b]Yeah, and like I said we may as well disallow these threads. Because we can't objectively argue two players from two different eras. It's
Also nowhere near his career averages, let alone the stats he posted in his 4th year. Remember that All Star West Roster also included such powerhouse Chris Gatling
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And really, there's lots of NBA players who attended college who took a few years to dominate also. It's not as though attending college equates to instant dominance at the NBA level.
True but college players are more prepared as they have learned playbooks and have worked as a team.
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Actually when you think about it, most of the high schoolers that got picked went on to become prominent NBA players, some more than others of course.
For every KG, there is a Robert Swift. There are far more bench/cut high school players than there are starters/superstars.
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David Robinson's prime coincided with Hakeem, Alonzo Mourning, Dennis Rodman, Mutombo. Those are historically great defensive players he had to combat for that honor. In reality, who are the other players that could conceivably challenge Howard for the honor, that are on the level of those guys?
Lebron James, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, etc...
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Yao was averaging 25ppg four years ago, in this guard's league. It can be done. Perhaps that's a one-off sample size, but I believe it's simply a drought for great offensive bigmen. I serious doubt today's rules 'prevent' a bigman from being a dominant scorer. I mean Howard averaged 23 last year, with better offensive skills it's not inconceivable he could average 26-27 a game. Note I said BETTER offensive skills. These things go in circles, the 90's saw a boom in centers, and in the 2000's it's the decade of the guard.
I never singled out scoring. I talked overall except in the case of blocks. Yao though only average 1.8 blocks, no more than 2 average in year.
P.S. Yao shot 51% that year compared to Howard's 59% this year. More shots equal more opportunity for points. Just stating...
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Point is they made a similar jump from high school to the NBA, and they made the jump to high level scorers before rule changes made it a 'guard's league'. They were much further ahead as scorers after 4-5 seasons compared to Howard's still somewhat raw offensive game( improving, albeit slowly). Perhaps they just had a natural talent for scoring that Howard does not?
It was a guard league in those years for the two players you listed. Don't believe me see all the emergence of combo guards i.e. AI, Starbury, Stevie Franchise, B-Diddy, etc.
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For one round. Who was he matched against on the Hawks? 6'9 Al Horford? I sincerely hope he can post that kind of statline when he has just about every advantage in his matchup.
Continue to believe that. You think he's intentionally holding himself back?
Again, 7 players in double figures. Howard averages 13 shots a game. That's pretty low compared to other superstars. Just stating...
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What the heck are you talking about? Yao started in 2002. Howard started in 2004. Hakeem started in 1984, Shaq in 1992.
I will stop you right there. Yao played professionally in China for 5 years prior to his NBA career. He was a FIBA world champ prior to joining the NBA. Far from "starting in 2002"...
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If you had watched Vince in 09, and then last year, it was plainly obvious the regression. In fact, Vince Carter's 'decline' was discussed alot last year. Which is why people went crazy when he scored that 48 points. Because people were talking about how much he had fallen off.
No doubt but the Magic system had alot to do with it.
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Actually that only shows that he's in more of an ensemble cast in Orlando, instead of being a primary scoring option, and that he was one of several players on the pecking order below Howard. It's pretty obvious his numbers aren't going to be what they were before.
Sure about that. He was the second option on this team. He was the third in Phoenix (behind Nash and Amare). But believe what you will.
Here is another one...
Rashard Lewis (2006-07 Seattle) - 22.4pts, 6.6reb
Rashard Lewis (2007-08 Orlando) - 18.2pts, 5.4reb
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Except I've seen times recently where a player hits the hands after getting a clean block, and no foul call. I've also seen the call made in Robinson's era. Hey, NBA officiating can be poor very often. But despite what you're saying here, 20 years ago if you blocked someone and hit a part of their body, sometimes it was called, sometimes it wasn't. The reality is that NBA basketball is officiated very inconsistently. That's even more of an issue than rule changes.
Again, follow through in the 90s was legal. The rule changed in the early 00s. Notice blocks across the boards as a stat have been down due to fouls being called on the follow through.
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Again, explain to me why Yao can put 25 points in 2007.
The comment which you referred to talked about blocks. Yao posted 1.8 that year. Again, way below players in the 90s.
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The reality is we're simply in a period where guards have taken center stage.
Finally you accept that the NBA is a guard league. Again, it has been that way since early 00s.
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I seriously doubt that David Robinson would do anything less than 27 points, 12 rebounds, and 3.5 blocks in this era. Particularly in scoring, if you accept that Robinson has the scoring edge and Howard is scoring 23 a game, I fail to see why that doesn't translate to Robinson scoring a good 26-28 points today. Even by today's standards, he brought a very unique blend of skills, size, and athleticism to the table.
Robinson would not. His numbers would be down. Probably simliar to Howard minus the rebounds as Howard is better on the boards. Take Duncan a simliar player to Robinson... on the better part of his career, he was averaging around 23pts, 12.5rebs, 3blks. This about where I would see Robinson in this day and age if he was still at his peak.
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Perhaps, but they're not on the same level as Robinson, or are you trying to argue that they are? Is there a problem with favoring fundamentals? Fundamental and skill is what carries you when you can't jump out of the gym anymore. See Michael Jordan from about 1995 onwards.
Plenty of the guys you trash have jumpshots and great midrange games.
Remember Howard is still young. He has plenty of years before he slows down.
Howard does just fine with them, same goes a good amount of the NBA centers and power forwards.
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So you're telling me there were no real changes in the game from, say, Wilt's era to Robinson's, as it was from Robinson's to Howard's? Hell, Wilt and Robinson are separated by 20+ years. David Robinson retired only 2 years before Howard joined the league. I don't see how you can make that claim with a straight face.
When did Wilt get brought in... I claim era for era. 75 to 85. As it related to Big Men, yes, the rules did not change that much that affected their game. The changes in the early 00s effectly made it harder on Big Men to play a simliar game to the guys in era discussed.
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Yeah, and like I said we may as well disallow these threads. Because we can't objectively argue two players from two different eras.
Also nowhere near his career averages, let alone the stats he posted in his 4th year. Remember that All Star West Roster also included such powerhouse Chris Gatling
Not near his career averages, but obviously still establishing himself as an all-star. And, if memory serves, he was a coach's pick, not a fan vote-in( though I stand to be corrected)
True but college players are more prepared as they have learned playbooks and have worked as a team.
Not disputing that, only that there's plenty of college players who have taken time to develop at the NBA players, just as there are high schoolers taking 3-4 years.
For every KG, there is a Robert Swift. There are far more bench/cut high school players than there are starters/superstars.
Moses Malone,Kemp, Garnett, Kobe, Jermaine Oneal, Al Harrington, Amare Stoudamire, Mcgrady, Rashard Lewis, Lebron, J.R Smith, Tyson Chandler, Kendrick Perkins, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis. All starters/stars/all-stars. I don't think the list of high school failures is that long, but I'm willing to see a list. I know you'll put in the work to dig one up.
[/b]
Lebron James, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, etc...
One defensive player award in the list, Garnett. Mutombo, Rodman, Mourning, are multiple time winners. Oh, can't forget the glove, Gary Payton. Kobe has been overrated as a defender for a few years now, certainly he's not better than Payton. Garnett, while still a very good defender, fell out of his prime at the same time Howard rose to prominence. Lebron James certainly is not on the defensive level of a Dennis Rodman, or Mourning and Mutumbo, the latter two who literally shut down the paint.
More competition in that category during Robinson's era.And Robinson caught each of the guys I mentioned above at the peak of their defensive powers.
I never singled out scoring. I talked overall except in the case of blocks. Yao though only average 1.8 blocks, no more than 2 average in year.
I was talking about Yao in terms of scoring, I wasn't talking about him in terms of blocks. You were making a case that this era makes it harder for a bigman to be a really high scorer. I gave you an example: Yao at 25ppg in 2007. You then turned your attention to talking about Yao's blocks. I don't know why, except to draw attention away from my example, by bringing up Yao's blocks. I've made NO mention of Yao's shotblocking anywhere.
P.S. Yao shot 51% that year compared to Howard's 59% this year. More shots equal more opportunity for points. Just stating...
P.S I did a head to head comparison. Yao comes out on top in all categories.
P.S # 2 Yao took a greater variety of shots, hooks, turnarounds, standing jumpers, than Howard did. The same applies to Robinson. I'm not faulting Howard for doing what works attributing to his percentage, but both Yao and Robinson are more skilled scorers. And despite the lower shooting percentage, both better scorers. Yao career high 25.0, Robinson 29.8.
Jut stating....
It was a guard league in those years for the two players you listed. Don't believe me see all the emergence of combo guards i.e. AI, Starbury, Stevie Franchise, B-Diddy, etc.
Not really, Iverson and Maybury came out in 1996, Steve Francis 1999, Baron Davis 1999. Wasn't even close to the guard's league it is today. In fact that time period when those guys came out was dominated by the likes of Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Dirk was emerging etc.....In reality, it's not so much a 'guard's league as it is a 'perimeter player's one. Small forwards have benefited as well.But it really wasn't until at least 2003, 2004. How else do you explain Steve Nash's sudden emergence from an 'all-star' point guard to winning an MVP award....at 31? It was around that time that the new rules really took hold.
And are any of those guy remotely close to Howard as a player? Can any of them match him in physicality? Which brings up an earlier point. Who is REALLY around to challenge Dwight? Yao? He's retired, hasn't played in 2 years. Bynum? Can't stay on the court. Oden? How many games has he played since joining the league? Bogut, Kamans? Robinson was contending against FAR better talent than that. Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutumbo.
Again, 7 players in double figures. Howard averages 13 shots a game. That's pretty low compared to other superstars. Just stating...
If Howard was a better offensive player, the offense would be designed to give him more shots. Because shot-jacking with Vince Carter, Nelson, Turkaglo, certainly isn't better options than pounding inside to a dominant big with an advantage just about every night. Or, to simplify my point, if Howard had the offensive potency of a Shaq, an Hakeem, or David Robinson, you think he wouldn't be getting more than 13 shots a night? Of course he would.
I will stop you right there. Yao played professionally in China for 5 years prior to his NBA career. He was a FIBA world champ prior to joining the NBA. Far from "starting in 2002"...
Ummmm Yao started playing in the NBA in 2002, Howard in 2004. Sorry if I didn't spell that out in plain english. Played professionally in China? ROTFLMAO. And that's supposed to prepare him for the HUGE gap when he went to the NBA?
More excuses....
No doubt but the Magic system had alot to do with it.
I told you what to do, go for Van Gundy's job.
But believe what you will.
Ditto. I would have thought it was obvious by now that I will. I'm just playing along for however long you want to drag out the debate.
Here is another one...
Rashard Lewis (2006-07 Seattle) - 22.4pts, 6.6reb
Rashard Lewis (2007-08 Orlando) - 18.2pts, 5.4reb
Because he went from a second option, to playing with Dwight and Hedo?
Again, follow through in the 90s was legal. The rule changed in the early 00s. Notice blocks across the boards as a stat have been down due to fouls being called on the follow through.
And I'm saying I've seen follow through get called for fouls back then. Legal, illegal, whatever. NBA officiating can hardly stand as a shining beacon of excellence and consistency.
The comment which you referred to talked about blocks. Yao posted 1.8 that year. Again, way below players in the 90s.
Because he's not that great a defender? I don't recall making a point about Yao being a great shotblocker. Sooooo.... what's your point here? In fact, I've posted Yao's averages of 25 and 9 and not included his blocks, SPECIFICALLY because he's not a great shotblocker.Congrats, you won your second 'put words in my mouth' award. I've not said ANYTHING about Yao's shotblocking from what I can see, going back to my earlier posts.
Finally you accept that the NBA is a guard league. Again, it has been that way since early 00s.
I never said it was a big man's league. I merely argue that the rules aren't designed to 'take away' the ability of a big man to be a dominant scorer. We're merely in a drought period of really dominant bigmen. Think about it, when was the last truly dominant bigman, offensively in particular, to come out of college? That's before they're subjected to NBA rules that 'cater' to perimeter players. There's just not many great bigs being breed right now. Must be something in the water.
Robinson would not. His numbers would be down. Probably simliar to Howard minus the rebounds as Howard is better on the boards. Take Duncan a simliar player to Robinson... on the better part of his career, he was averaging around 23pts, 12.5rebs, 3blks. This about where I would see Robinson in this day and age if he was still at his peak.
Doubt he'd be down. If he's a better scorer with more scoring skills, he'll score more. He won't rebound as much, but looking at the league rebound leaders, you're crazy if you think he can't get 12 a game. Kevin Love averages 15, you're telling me David Robinson can't get 11-12 rebounds?? Please. You've got Zach Randolph averaging 12, Kris Humpries averaging 10, Pau Gasol getting 10....David Robinson can get AT LEAST 11-12. Which is consistent with his prime.
Since you wish to take a guess at Robinson's averages today, how much do you think Howard gets in Robinson's era 20 years ago?
Plenty of the guys you trash have jumpshots and great midrange games.
Perhaps, doesn't make them great all-around players. Brandan Bass has a good midrange shot, doesn't make him great players though.
Remember Howard is still young. He has plenty of years before he slows down.
I haven't argued otherwise. But skill ultimately carries you in this league further and longer than athletic ability.He has lots of work to do. We'll see....
Howard does just fine with them, same goes a good amount of the NBA centers and power forwards.
Because none of them are really on his level, especially physically. How many more times does this need to be said? His competition this era isn't as good as before. If you think anyone today matches Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Mourning, you really need to start watching more basketball. The upper tier 90's centers are on a totally different level from Howard's competition today. Are you really arguing otherwise??
When did Wilt get brought in... I claim era for era. 75 to 85. As it related to Big Men, yes, the rules did not change that much that affected their game.
Wilt and Robinson played in different eras, under different rules. Hell, was there 3 second violation when Wilt played? Was the painted area defined like it is now? They played under drastically different rules. Hell, Wilt's dominance was the reason for a number of rule changes. I'm too lazy right now, but google it or something.
The changes in the early 00s effectly made it harder on Big Men to play a simliar game to the guys in era discussed.
This is where adaption to the rules of the day come into play.The 90's made it harder for perimeter players to penetrate at will with handchecking. Now, the game has been made easier for good perimeter players to thrive. But that doesn't mean the rules are designed to kill off post scoring. You've still got good post players today: Gasol, Al Jefferson, Randolph, all competent post threats. Dirk's even posting up with confidence nowadays. Players will either adapt, or they won't.They either have it in them to do certain things, to learn new skills, or they don't. They'll adapt to new teams, new roles, new rules, aging, any number of things. It's a process that's ever-changing and again, either a player has it in them to adapt and thrive or they won't.
The rules of today aren't stopping Dwight Howard from further developing himself as an offensive player, or putting up bigger scoring numbers than he does.
Looks like we agree on something
It hurt, believe me.
Bold reply. Tired yet? Because I think we're at the point of repeating ourselves.
i see a lot made of davids time in college, i think some things are being over looked on this topic, the naval academy isnt exactly playing duke, kansas, usc, unlv but playing airforce, army, san jose state, smu, and so on. the level of competition IS better then high school BUT isnt anywhere near the level of top colleges let alone nba, and second david after graduation, and before the nba went on to serve his country for 2 years with NO BASKETBALL. in other words he took a 2 year break from competition before joining the spurs. so not only did howard start his career earlier in life, and at this stage have much more experience but robinson came in after 2 years of no play outside of pick up games on the NAVAL BASE, and he still came in with huge numbers. in theory howard should get 6 more years in the league then david, and i would not be surprised if he never passes david in scoring or blocks even with the extra time on the floor.
and in reference to the 2 "block/foul" videos, the starks block was as clean a block as i have seen, the block on robinson was borderline and would get called either way IMO today.
i see a lot made of davids time in college, i think some things are being over looked on this topic, the naval academy isnt exactly playing duke, kansas, usc, unlv but playing airforce, army, san jose state, smu, and so on. the level of competition IS better then high school BUT isnt anywhere near the level of top colleges let alone nba, and second david after graduation, and before the nba went on to serve his country for 2 years with NO BASKETBALL. in other words he took a 2 year break from competition before joining the spurs.
Excellent point, and one I thought of earlier but neglected to mention. Robinson was actually a 1987 pick, but didn't start his NBA career until 1989, due to Navy commitments. Which certainly would have stunted his growth. I mean hell, as you suggest, he wasn't exactly playing top tier teams at the college basketball level, compared to Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning who all came from heralded Division 1 colleges. And that didn't stop Robinson from being not only one of the best centers, but one of the best players of that era, PERIOD. It didn't stop him from having a strong set of offensive and defensive fundamentals early in his career, despite the 2nd tier college competition, despite the 2 year hiatus of non-competitive Basketball. Look at it this way( I know I'm preaching to the converted with you, this is more for the other poster):
Howard at 25 has 7 years of NBA experience coming out of high school. Those first 4 years of Howard's career, in terms of development, should put him ahead of Robinson in terms of fundamentals at 25, who played in 2nd tier college competition from 18-22, followed by 2 years of no high level basketball. Robinson at 25 was in his second NBA year, and he had already developed a greater skill set than Howard has NOW, after 7 years of high level NBA basketball. And you can make the point that Howard was completely raw offensively after his 6th year, until he enlisted the services of Hakeem in the summer of 2010, and even though he's much improved, he's still very mechanical in his delivery. The point should be emphasized that Howard needed to ENLIST the help of a former great, in order to improve offensively. David Robinson scored 24.3 a game.....as a rookie.... after 2 seasons of basically no competitive basketball. Oh my.....
As I've been saying to Ncopos99, after a while it just comes off as a bunch of excuses.
Since we're getting youtube happy up in here, here's a video of Yao vs Howard from the 2008-2009 season. This would be Yao, in his 7th year, going against Howard in his 5th year. So both, at this stage, are well-established players. This isn't 12th year Hakeem against 3rd year Shaq in the finals. And Yao is beating him with skill as much as anything. Jumpers right in his face, hooks.... you see the video.
It also shows when matched against an opponent who he can't overwhelm physically, and throw Yao's skill into the mix, well...... you see the video. Now extrapolate this to how Howard would match up against guys like Hakeem, Robinson, guys who again he's not going to dominate physically and doesn't compare in terms of skills and fundamentals... yeah you can figure it out.
Shaq on Howard? Here's 38 year old Shaq and Dwight:
You were talking about Robinson can't stop Shaq? And Howard has a hope in hell? He couldn't even stop 38 year old WELL past his prime Shaq from doing the above.
Now extrapolate that to figure out how Dwight would fare against 28 year old Lakers Shaq. Not pretty.... Howard is dominating an era of bigs NOWHERE near the best of the 90's.
Not near his career averages, but obviously still establishing himself as an all-star. And, if memory serves, he was a coach's pick, not a fan vote-in( though I stand to be corrected)
Again, Chris Gatling was also a coach's choice. Was this guy ever a beast? No.
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Moses Malone,Kemp, Garnett, Kobe, Jermaine Oneal, Al Harrington, Amare Stoudamire, Mcgrady, Rashard Lewis, Lebron, J.R Smith, Tyson Chandler, Kendrick Perkins, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis. All starters/stars/all-stars. I don't think the list of high school failures is that long, but I'm willing to see a list. I know you'll put in the work to dig one up.
Where are they?
Bill Willoughby, Korlene Young, Jonathan Bender, Leon Smith, Ousmane Cisse, Ndubi Ebi, James Lang, Robert Swift, Sebatian Telfair, Gerald Green, Ricky Sanchez (thank you Wikipedia)
Bench
JR Smith is a bench player. Harrington has been a bench player for a couple years now. Add these into the mix: Darius Miles, DeShawn Stephenson, Kwame Brown, Diop, Travis Outlaw, Shaun Livingston, Martell Webster, CJ Miles, Louis Williams, Andray Blatche, and the last high school draftee Amir Johnson.
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Lebron James certainly is not on the defensive level of a Dennis Rodman, or Mourning and Mutumbo, the latter two who literally shut down the paint.
Different positions, different styles. James is really good defender.
By the way, Rodman got away with murder when defending; grabbing, holding, etc. He would riding the bench in today's standards playing that way. Just staying...
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I was talking about Yao in terms of scoring, I wasn't talking about him in terms of blocks. You were making a case that this era makes it harder for a bigman to be a really high scorer.
I did not ever say it was hard for a big man to score. Shaq has shown that as false. Hell Howard is posting 23 points/game. Fairly good amount of points given the teammates he plays with. I questioned the whole time saying it was hard to match block numbers in todays game due to rules changes with follow through.
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Not really, Iverson and Maybury came out in 1996, Steve Francis 1999, Baron Davis 1999. Wasn't even close to the guard's league it is today. In fact that time period when those guys came out was dominated by the likes of Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Dirk was emerging etc.....
1 Center in your list... Dirk plays a SF game. A big rule change, i.e. restricted zone, implemented in 1997 led to more fouls on Big Men since the Big Man has to be outside the zone in order to either take a charge or attempt at defense. If they are within that circle, it is a defensive foul i.e. favoring the guard and, as you stated, the small forward since alot of them playing like a guard.
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How else do you explain Steve Nash's sudden emergence from an 'all-star' point guard to winning an MVP award....at 31
It has nothing to do with being in the run-and-gun high assist offense of Mike D'Antoni... hmm...
This same style offense made Felton look like a stud earlier this season... hmm...
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And are any of those guy remotely close to Howard as a player? Can any of them match him in physicality?
You made it seem like a 6'9 guy was guarding him. No these guys physically are big guys, not scrawny Jermaine O'Neal's of the NBA. Just because these guys aren't scorers doesn't make them bad defenders.
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If Howard was a better offensive player, the offense would be designed to give him more shots. Because shot-jacking with Vince Carter, Nelson, Turkaglo, certainly isn't better options than pounding inside to a dominant big with an advantage just about every night. Or, to simplify my point, if Howard had the offensive potency of a Shaq, an Hakeem, or David Robinson, you think he wouldn't be getting more than 13 shots a night? Of course he would.
Are you sure you don't want the Magic Head Coach job?
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Ummmm Yao started playing in the NBA in 2002, Howard in 2004. Sorry if I didn't spell that out in plain english. Played professionally in China? ROTFLMAO. And that's supposed to prepare him for the HUGE gap when he went to the NBA?
Yeah because playing on the Chinese National Team for all those years playing Europeans (that made the NBA) and even the Worlds in 2002 (right before entering NBA) which the USA puts together a team of NBA stars as well as the rest of the countries pulls their NBA superstars for their national teams.
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Because he went from a second option, to playing with Dwight and Hedo?
He was truly the second option in Orlando. Second in shooting.
The difference is he stayed at the 3 point line instead of banging downlow and scoring like he did in Seattle. He missed more shots at the 3point line thus he averaged dropped. He stayed at the 3 point line thus his opportunity for rebounds went down. Again, it's the system, not the lack of talent.
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Because he's not that great a defender? I don't recall making a point about Yao being a great shotblocker. Sooooo.... what's your point here? In fact, I've posted Yao's averages of 25 and 9 and not included his blocks, SPECIFICALLY because he's not a great shotblocker.Congrats, you won your second 'put words in my mouth' award. I've not said ANYTHING about Yao's shotblocking from what I can see, going back to my earlier posts.
Again, I only singled out Blocks. That's it.
As I talked about Robinson getting numbers simliar to Duncan in today's age... I said it because the guards are taking a more active role in scoring today. How many true point guards still exist? Not many. In the 90s, they were plenty. So now most teams are running essentially two SGs. This is why I made the claim. With team scoring lower than it once was (maybe attributed to the 35 second rule change) and guards/SF scoring a ton of points, Robinson couldn't possibly score what he once did on average.
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Doubt he'd be down. If he's a better scorer with more scoring skills, he'll score more. He won't rebound as much, but looking at the league rebound leaders, you're crazy if you think he can't get 12 a game. Kevin Love averages 15, you're telling me David Robinson can't get 11-12 rebounds?? Please. You've got Zach Randolph averaging 12, Kris Humpries averaging 10, Pau Gasol getting 10....David Robinson can get AT LEAST 11-12. Which is consistent with his prime.
Did you not read my statement? I stated I predict Robinson would average 12.5. That more that "11-12".
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Since you wish to take a guess at Robinson's averages today, how much do you think Howard gets in Robinson's era 20 years ago?
27pts, 14reb, 4blks
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Wilt and Robinson played in different eras, under different rules. Hell, was there 3 second violation when Wilt played? Was the painted area defined like it is now? They played under drastically different rules. Hell, Wilt's dominance was the reason for a number of rule changes. I'm too lazy right now, but google it or something.
Wilt did what he did because he was ten times larger than everyone and he was crazy athletic.
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Originally Posted by rigas
the naval academy isnt exactly playing duke, kansas, usc, unlv but playing airforce, army, san jose state, smu, and so on.
Not exactly. They made the NCAA tourney 3 of the years he was there and played teams like Duke, Maryland, Michigan, and Syracuse in it.
His senior year he played NC St, Mich St, UNLV, Kentucky, Miami, and Michigan. So they played good teams too...
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Originally Posted by rigas
and in reference to the 2 "block/foul" videos, the starks block was as clean a block as i have seen, the block on robinson was borderline and would get called either way IMO today.
He hit Starks' hand on the follow through. It would easily have been called in today's game. Robinson's could have led to a Tech since it hit his head. Someone was hit with a tech this past year for block follow though that hit a head.
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Originally Posted by Greg1977
Since we're getting youtube happy up in here, here's a video of Yao vs Howard from the 2008-2009 season. This would be Yao, in his 7th year, going against Howard in his 5th year. So both, at this stage, are well-established players. This isn't 12th year Hakeem against 3rd year Shaq in the finals. And Yao is beating him with skill as much as anything. Jumpers right in his face, hooks.... you see the video.
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