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Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
I don't think Jordan's competition in his championship-winning years was particularly great either. When they finally beat the Pistons, Isiah was coming off wrist surgery and the team was beginning a rapid decline. The Celtics were old and Bird had back problems. Kareem was retired and Magic had HIV. The league had added a lot of teams before and during the Bulls' run.
The Jazz, Sonics, Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Blazers, Cavs, and Magic that Jordan faced in his championship years are fairly comparable to the Spurs, Celtics, Mavs, Thunder, Pistons, and Magic that Lebron has faced so far imo.
Hmmm....some good points you made there. I have to agree.
I am a big LeBron fan, but MJ is still the best I've ever seen. Not saying he's the best ever, but the best I've ever seen. I've seen Magic, Bird, Dr.J, Pippen, Drexler, Olajuwon (very underrated, IMO), and Bryant. All great players, but MJ's got no equal.
To be honest, I don't even know if I really need statistics to make the argument. I just remember what my eyes saw and the feeling I had watching those games in which Jordan played. Fans knew that sooner or later, MJ, no matter how bad his night was or no matter how well-guarded he had been in the entire series, he was going to have the last word in the series. And he inevitably did. You just knew he was going to take over the game, and he did. Bryant has at times reminded me of Jordan more than LeBron, but MJ made it almost routine.
At the end of the day, Jordan and Lebron's careers aren't really similar enough to make many comparisons about what one did at his age, versus what the other did at their age , and so on. Same with Kobe, totally different kind of career starting out with Shaq and a talented Lakers squad. All of these comparisons need a heavy dose of context and perspective; I just prefer to sit back and watch greatness at that given moment in time. These comparisons are endless, subjective, and ultimately futile.
A follow-up thought on why MJ reigns supreme in my mind, and it goes back to an observation that Phil Jackson recently made public. To paraphrase the Zen master, if MJ struggled, he would start getting his teammates involved; Kobe, on the other hand tries to force the issue.
That comment says a lot, actually, and I think it explains why MJ was consistently so dominant in big games. I think MJ understood that however unbelievably talented he or any individual is, it's still a team game. There were still plenty of years when MJ was in his prime and didn't win championships. He understood perhaps as well as any athlete I can recall the conventional approach that teams will take against a dominant player - "We're not gonna let this guy beat us." (This guy being MJ, himself). MJ knew that teams were approaching the game in that manner. Now on some nights and against some opponents, he knew it didn't matter what they did: he was going to stomp them anyway. But against the elite teams, he understood going into the game that he might need help from guys like Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and others. And what makes Jordan so great is that he's so individually dominant on the one hand but, on the other hand, intelligent enough to use his teammates to open things up for him late in the game. Sure, maybe they can control him for three quarters, but if Pippen, Kukoc, and the supporting cast start sinking shots, then the defense can't just pay attention to MJ; they have to guard the others. He knew that his teammates were good enough to win games if he was having an off night. Kobe has been most effective when he's adopted that same approach, but I think that he's not as disciplined as MJ was, and he has had a tendency to ignore that strategy to the detriment of his team.
LeBron? I think that LeBron has definitely been an unselfish player. The knock on him for the longest time was that he couldn't finish opponents in games - at least not on a consistent basis. I think he's improved in that respect. I think he's become a much better 4th quarter player, and I don't think he's done developing. That's one argument in favor of his leaving Cleveland to go to Miami. Say what one will of 'the Decision' but he was never going to learn that from being under Mike Brown and playing with a mediocre Cleveland team. He needed to play with an organization lead by Pat Riley and his understudy, Spoelstra. And he needed to play with established veterans like Wade, Battier, and Bosh. Would Tom Brady be Tom Brady if he had played with Arizona and not New England?
Earlier in his career, Jordan was not consistently dominate in big games. There were quite a few postseason games where he didn't perform well.
Jackson had to get Jordan to be selfless. Even when the Bulls reached the Finals in 1991, Jackson has to implore Jordan to pass the ball to Paxson in the 4th quarter of the clinching game. Jordan has to learn just as much as everyone else.
Why is losing in earlier rounds looked at more favorably than losing in the finals?
When Jordan was 23, he was swept in the first round by the Celtics. When Lebron was 23, he was swept in the finals by the Spurs.
When Jordan was 27, he lost to the Pistons in the eastern conference finals. When Lebron was 27, he lost to the Mavs in the finals.
These losses are held against Lebron, yet Jordan's losses in earlier rounds aren't. The fact that Lebron was eliminated later in the playoffs than Jordan early on is seen as a negative. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
Jordan got swept in the first round by the Celtics, but at least he didn't make it to the finals and lose!
And that Celtics team was better than any team Lebron has faced.....
Age matters not, Lebron came into the league at a younger age and early on had a better team around him.
How do you know Bosh would have come to Cleveland? How do you know the Cavs could have won if he stayed? How do you know players would have come there to play with Lebron when they hadn't before? How do you know they hatched some plan in the Olympics?
You seem to be just making things up to go along with your narrative. Bosh actually agreed to join Miami before Lebron. He joined Miami and then he and Wade lobbied Lebron to join.
I know as well as you do that it didnt happen. The general thought in the NBA is that it did happen that way. There was no plan if Lebron didnt run out on Cleveland. Thats like saying that players in the 90s wouldnt have bent over backwards to go to Chicago. They just wanted to go to Miami.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
Why does Shaq not get the same criticism for leaving Orlando? Nash leaving the Mavs? Garnett leaving the Timerberwolves (after wasting nearly all his prime in Minnesota)? Kobe almost signed with the Clippers at one point because his supporting cast was weak on the Lakers. It is believed that Jordan almost signed with the Knicks.
None of them were playing for their hometown team and were universally adored and walked out on them with a huge spectacle that villified him forever...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
What would you do if your job offered no chance to advance your career? If you were stuck in a dead end job? Would you stay there and hope it got better or would you go somewhere else?
His situation was hardly desperate....
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
The idea that Pippen wasn't that great and only got credit because of Jordan is ridiculous. While Jordan was playing baseball Pippen was averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game on 49.1% shooting. He made first team All NBA, was 3rd in MVP voting, and the led the Bulls to 55 wins and took a very good Knicks team to 7 games in the playoffs. How many "2nd tier stars" do you know that make first team All NBA and finish 3rd in MVP voting? He was also one of the best perimeter defenders of all time.
And who was Lebron's "2nd tier star" in Cleveland? Mo Williams? Larry Hughes? Over the hill Shaq? Washed up Ben Wallace? Wally Z? Illgauskus? Antoine Jamison?
I didnt say Pippen wasnt that great. I only said he wasnt one of the top 50 of all time. There were no other great players on those Bulls teams.
And you are vastly under rating the teams the Bulls beat. Those Jazz teams were great, the Sonics, Blazers teams were great, Phoenix, NY. He beat Karl Malone, John Stockton, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler. He single handedly kept these hall of fame players from getting titles.
Earlier in his career, Jordan was not consistently dominate in big games. There were quite a few postseason games where he didn't perform well.
Whaddya mean by early on? When he was basically playing by himself against the Celtics in 1986? I don't think that counts. He was controlled by the Pistons, but that was one of the best defensive teams of all time, and that was also in Pippen's rookie and 2nd year and before Phil Jackson implemented the triangle. After about 1989, nobody controlled Jordan. Nobody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild100s
Jackson had to get Jordan to be selfless. Even when the Bulls reached the Finals in 1991, Jackson has to implore Jordan to pass the ball to Paxson in the 4th quarter of the clinching game. Jordan has to learn just as much as everyone else.
There's some truth to that, but he did learn to trust his teammates more. Even after years of Jackson tutelage, Kobe occasionally went back to his old bad habits.
Whaddya mean by early on? When he was basically playing by himself against the Celtics in 1986? I don't think that counts. He was controlled by the Pistons, but that was one of the best defensive teams of all time, and that was also in Pippen's rookie and 2nd year and before Phil Jackson implemented the triangle. After about 1989, nobody controlled Jordan. Nobody.
Yeah, that was when he was averaging 40 pts a game in the playoffs. 43.5 in his second season.
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