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I think to be eligible to be in the Jordan debate you need to be the clutchest player in the NBA today or close to it.
Stats alone isn't good enough, when we're talking Jordan comparisons.
Kobe got the Jordan comparisons because of clutchness (even though he wasn't close to Jordan's level of clutchness, he was a standout in the 2000s).
Kobe earned that comparison with the combination of production and clutchness.
Clutchness is the ultimate measure of manhood (when grouped with high level production).
So I don't think LeBron deserves the Jordan comparisons.
Why is clutchness so important? Because sport is all about WINNING.
Lebron is an all time great player and we never seen someone with his talent before. He's like Magic on steroids but like many of you have said,he doesn't have the killer instinct. He doesn't have the takeover 4th quarter mindset.That's what Jordan & Kobe became masters of.That doesn't take away from Lebron because he's just a different player than Jordan.His career will be judged differently because he left to Miami & than hand-picked his current Cavaliers team.
He's top 3 of all time talent wise but only top 10 of all time winning wise and winning as a leader or as a 1-2 punch combo is what it's all about if you want to be one of the Goats.
Lebron is an all time great player and we never seen someone with his talent before. He's like Magic on steroids but like many of you have said,he doesn't have the killer instinct. He doesn't have the takeover 4th quarter mindset.That's what Jordan & Kobe became masters of.That doesn't take away from Lebron because he's just a different player than Jordan.His career will be judged differently because he left to Miami & than hand-picked his current Cavaliers team.
He's top 3 of all time talent wise but only top 10 of all time winning wise and winning as a leader or as a 1-2 punch combo is what it's all about if you want to be one of the Goats.
I think Lebron can win 2 more championships but I doubt he can get 6 especially with it looking like Golden State is going to be a beast for years. Like I said though, and I think you agree, # of rings is only part of the equation. It vastly depends on the coaching and makeup of your teams throughout the years that you played.
First and foremost, if you want to look for the NBA GOAT, look no further than Bill Russell - 11 titles in 13 years. Jordan only has 6. Why do people keep saying Jordan is the GOAT? And as for the Lebron v Jordan, debate, Lebron by a mile. Why? Cause Lebron never had a hall of famer like Scottie Pippen. By the time he got with Wade, who will probably end up in the HOF, Wade was already on the downhill. No other player has as much flexibility to play any position, guard any other player, make everyone around him better, and dominate a game like Lebron. If there was a junior GOAT category, Lebron would be my pick, full stop!
First and foremost, if you want to look for the NBA GOAT, look no further than Bill Russell - 11 titles in 13 years. Jordan only has 6. Why do people keep saying Jordan is the GOAT? And as for the Lebron v Jordan, debate, Lebron by a mile. Why? Cause Lebron never had a hall of famer like Scottie Pippen. By the time he got with Wade, who will probably end up in the HOF, Wade was already on the downhill. No other player has as much flexibility to play any position, guard any other player, make everyone around him better, and dominate a game like Lebron. If there was a junior GOAT category, Lebron would be my pick, full stop!
The season before they came together in Miami, Wade, Bosh and Lebron were all top 5 in PER. Bosh was coming off a 24/11 season and Wade 27/7/5. They were all legit top 15 players. There's no doubt they knew what they were doing - hence why the confidence to say 'Not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7'. Let's not rewrite history and act like the basketball wasn't absolutely shocked when so much talent came together so quickly.
The season before they came together in Miami, Wade, Bosh and Lebron were all top 5 in PER. Bosh was coming off a 24/11 season and Wade 27/7/5. They were all legit top 15 players. There's no doubt they knew what they were doing - hence why the confidence to say 'Not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7'. Let's not rewrite history and act like the basketball wasn't absolutely shocked when so much talent came together so quickly.
Let's also not pretend that by Year 2 of the Lebron years, he wasn't showing signs of decline. I agree that Wade was a Top 5 player at the time they joined together, but he declined considerably each year of the Lebron years. Wade's three best seasons were 2009, 2006, and 2010. 2011 can probably be considered his 4th best year of his career, and the only year of his Lebron Years that are in his Top 5 seasons...
The "Dwyane Wade" that created his legacy as an All-Timer is not the one Lebron played with, it was before Lebron. So, I do think he and Pippen are basically equals, but whereas Jordan got to play with peak Pippen, Lebron never got peak Wade--but Wade got peak Lebron. So it's not exactly the same. Wade WAS on the downhill in the Lebron Years and everyone knows it...
And Bosh was never a great player to begin with. He was good but there have been #1's who carried teams who were better than Bosh was with Toronto (Barkley, Garnett, Dirk for starters), so Lebron (and Wade and the Heat) brought the best out of him. One can make the argument Kevin Love was a better #1 and is a better player than Bosh, so his contributions are largely as a role player a la Horace Grant...
Let's also not pretend that by Year 2 of the Lebron years, he wasn't showing signs of decline. I agree that Wade was a Top 5 player at the time they joined together, but he declined considerably each year of the Lebron years. Wade's three best seasons were 2009, 2006, and 2010. 2011 can probably be considered his 4th best year of his career, and the only year of his Lebron Years that are in his Top 5 seasons...
The "Dwyane Wade" that created his legacy as an All-Timer is not the one Lebron played with, it was before Lebron. So, I do think he and Pippen are basically equals, but whereas Jordan got to play with peak Pippen, Lebron never got peak Wade--but Wade got peak Lebron. So it's not exactly the same. Wade WAS on the downhill in the Lebron Years and everyone knows it...
And Bosh was never a great player to begin with. He was good but there have been #1's who carried teams who were better than Bosh was with Toronto (Barkley, Garnett, Dirk for starters), so Lebron (and Wade and the Heat) brought the best out of him. One can make the argument Kevin Love was a better #1 and is a better player than Bosh, so his contributions are largely as a role player a la Horace Grant...
Peak Wade is a franchise player/champion that should be leading his own team (as he did for years). The Wade Lebron got in 2011 was ready to roll in the finals where he put up 27/7/5 on 55% shooting. If Lebron shows up Wade is a 2x Finals MVP with 3-4 rings. Bosh was the "worst" of the big 3 but still arguably top 15 in the league - not bad to bring in as a 3rd fiddle.
Peak Wade is a franchise player/champion that should be leading his own team (as he did for years). The Wade Lebron got in 2011 was ready to roll in the finals where he put up 27/7/5 on 55% shooting. If Lebron shows up Wade is a 2x Finals MVP with 3-4 rings. Bosh was the "worst" of the big 3 but still arguably top 15 in the league - not bad to bring in as a 3rd fiddle.
And yet, Wade's Finals numbers declined significantly each of the subsequent years. There is no way you can twist it to say Lebron was playing with a prime Wade like Jordan had prime Pippen (and you didn't "say" it bit you're definitely inferring it)...
Wade's career probably was done after 10 or 11 seasons, and the proof of this is that even though he didn't have to shoulder #1 responsibilities anymore, he became demonstrably worse each year, much less effective and much more injury prone. Yes, he was a beast in his prime and already a champion before Lebron, but his career was trending downwards anyway. And it's not like he's played a hell of a lot longer than Lebron--they cane in the sane year...
Wade was great bit was getting nowhere near a Finals agaim without Lebron James...
First and foremost, if you want to look for the NBA GOAT, look no further than Bill Russell - 11 titles in 13 years. Jordan only has 6. Why do people keep saying Jordan is the GOAT? And as for the Lebron v Jordan, debate, Lebron by a mile. Why? Cause Lebron never had a hall of famer like Scottie Pippen. By the time he got with Wade, who will probably end up in the HOF, Wade was already on the downhill. No other player has as much flexibility to play any position, guard any other player, make everyone around him better, and dominate a game like Lebron. If there was a junior GOAT category, Lebron would be my pick, full stop!
Winning the most titles does not = goat. Jordan is the goat, Lebron will never touch him. Lebron will never win another title. I'm glad he got one for Cleveland to somewhat redeem himself, but his title winning days are over.
Wade was a superstar who had a couple injuries later, but was still the vocal leader of those teams. Year one when they lost to the Mavericks, Lebron was a mental midget. He did get better after that, but only because Wade and Bosh plus Allen backed him up.
Lebron is physically superior to almost anyone who has played, but his mental edge is not there. He's always made bad decisions at the end of games.
First and foremost, if you want to look for the NBA GOAT, look no further than Bill Russell - 11 titles in 13 years. Jordan only has 6. Why do people keep saying Jordan is the GOAT? And as for the Lebron v Jordan, debate, Lebron by a mile. Why? Cause Lebron never had a hall of famer like Scottie Pippen. By the time he got with Wade, who will probably end up in the HOF, Wade was already on the downhill. No other player has as much flexibility to play any position, guard any other player, make everyone around him better, and dominate a game like Lebron. If there was a junior GOAT category, Lebron would be my pick, full stop!
Exactly that's why I said rings only matter to a certain extent, they just pick and choose who they like. The so called experts are full of you know what.
According to their logic Bill Russell should be the GOAT but then they try and bend the rules to try and prove Jordan is the GOAT. Yet just because Lebron doesn't have 6 rings at age 32, he can't be in the discussion? If you don't factor in rings at all, Jerry West is in the discussion for GOAT.
It's all a bunch of BS.
Last edited by wanderlust76; 06-08-2017 at 10:08 PM..
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