Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Oh, so you think Curry (Durant?) is better than James? James makes them look like skinny high school kids.
Source?
In 2017, I do think Curry is better than James. He warps defenses in ways that no other NBA player does. He is a solid defender. Size & athleticism don't make you better--otherwise JaVale McGee would be the NBA's best ever.
My eyes see that James is not as athletic as he used to be. But he's a better basketball player than he used to be, too.
He's already declining physically, but he's better mentally than he ever has been. I expect 2-3 more years where he is a dominant player.
He's probably only declined physically very slightly. To me it looks like he's toned up some he had a bulkier build a few years ago this change was most likely intentional. His nutrition and training is most likely perfect I see him being dominant for quite a few more years.
What must Lebron or any other player do to top Jordan as GOAT?
Stop trying!! MJ is the GOAT of his time and one of the GOATs of NBA History. MJ made the NBA an international success. MJ help Nike become a big footwear company. (And the Jordan Brand remains the biggest seller by far when you compare Nike, Jordan and Converse).
Lebron and other players should strive to become the GOATs of their time and become a GOAT of NBA History. Notice how many threads are made of MJ or how many Prime MJ vs X or MJ's Bulls vs X team.
He's probably only declined physically very slightly. To me it looks like he's toned up some he had a bulkier build a few years ago this change was most likely intentional. His nutrition and training is most likely perfect I see him being dominant for quite a few more years.
The same could've been said for Kobe. He was a slave to perfect training/diet and he even intentionally slimmed down a little (lost some muscle) around age 31. At 32-33 he had never really missed signifant time, but then one freak injury ended Kobe as we knew him.
All the candidates teamed up with other superstars to get their titles. Magic & Kareem had each other plus James Worthy. Bill Russell had Bob Cousy & John Havlicek, Jordan had Pippen & Rodman. Lebron had Wade & Bosh, and now has Irving & Love.
The last generation also has to include Kevin Garnett, who was an incredible force on both ends of the court, and Yao, who (when available) was unstoppable. Plus Dwayne Wade, Chris Paul, and Dirk.
The players who don't have enough longevity & achievement yet who define the current generation? I think you have to add Curry & Durant. In 5 years, we'll probably add James Harden, Anthony Davis, and Demarcus Cousins.
Lebron is clearly above Kobe. I think he has cleared Duncan comfortably. He is in rarefied company. Maybe Shaq belongs up there. But it's definitely with Jordan, Magic, Kareem, and Russell--and not with Kobe, Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem.
How has he cleared Duncan ? Duncan beat him 2 times in the finals and clearly gave the 2013 title away but that's not up for debate
He's clearly above Kobe ?
Kobe is the closest player offensively to the man we all know as Jordan ( GOAT ) He's out played and beat everyone in his generation from Iverson to Duncan,Garnett to Mcgrady and even took on the Lebron & Wade generation where everyone from KD to Kyrie irving looks up to Kobe as the Mj of this era today.
Kobe was the best player or at least top 3 from 01 - 12
O6 - 10 he was clearly the best and was robbed of at least 3 Mvps in his career.
Around 2011/12 the Lakers are running out of gas and trade for Chris Paul ! But for the first time in league history owners go bananas and stern blocks the trade
He fights till the end but suffers a serious injury - the rest is history and all we can do is appreciate greatness and think about what could have been if Kobe & Cp3 was allowed to play together.1 more ring is a strong possibility.
Now Lebron goes to team up and do his Super team thing where on paper the Heat are supposed to win every final they're playing in based on talent alone.
They choke to Dallas in 2011 and than beat up a young thunder team in 2012
Like i said the Spurs gave 2013 away and they proved that by coming back the next year in 2014 to smash Lebron and the heat.So when did he surpass Kobe & Duncan ?
Some fans say Lebron was the best in 2008 lol
2015 finals we'll never know the outcome had Kyrie and Love played.
2016 finals is so full of controversy that it's not even worth the argument.
The winner of the 2017 finals will finally prove who really deserved the 15 & 16 titles.
Is Lebron great ? Hell yeah but playing in the weak east on Super Teams formed to chase rings for the past 7 years is trash.
Those Bulls teams were crappy 30-40 win teams that didn't belong in the playoffs anyway. That's the whole point -- Jordan didn't really have any blemishes. It's all academic whether Jordan would have won any finals or even escaped the first round had he not been coached by PJ and had his all-star teammates not shown up (probably would have at least gotten out of the first round).
This actually is one of Kobe's blemishes. He could not get out of the first round without Gasol or Shaq. This is one thing Lebron did many times.
How could Kobe get out the first round if Gasol wasn't there yet ? He had a team full of D league talent from 05 -07
And what did Gasol do before joining Kobe ?
How many rings did Lebron win without his Big 3 teams ?
In order to surpass Jordan is simple.Win 7 rings with no final losses.
Kobe and Duncan got the closest so far but still loss in the finals before.No excuses !
Jordan is the undisputed GOAT
Magic is #2
Kareem is #3
Russell is #4
To me Shaq / Kobe make #5 in a toss up
Wilt #6
Bird #7
Duncan #8
Lebron #9
Hakeem #10
Your entire supposition is laced with bias, but I guess we're all guilty of that some time. Still, allow me to point some things out:
- Your eye test says the Cavs are playing flawed and weak teams, as if the Warriors didn't just play the Blazers and Jazz. Dress it how you wanna dress it, but the Raptors and Jazz had the same record and would probably play each other to 7 games. The Pacers won a game more than the Blazers and those two could probably play each other to 7 games as well. Any "flaw" or "weakness" you can point out in Toronto or Indiana, I guarantee you I can do with Portland and Utah. You don't want to play that game...
-the Cavaliers don't look like a better team than they did in the regular season? Yet, they didn't have an 8-game winning streak all season--they topped out at 6 early in the year. They lead all playoff teams in FG% and 3P%, are t-3rd in 2P%. They've got the #6 DRtg of 16 qualifying playoff teams. That would have made them #11-12 if we extrapolate it to the regular season, if they played to this level then, when they actually finished #21 for DRtg in the 16-17 season. They have the #6 playoff Defensive eFG% (t-19th in regular season)...
Nobody is claiming they are in full shutdown, great defensive mode. But they are playing better defense. They are definitely playing better overall than they played since maybe December. Are you even watching the games?
-"no team this far has an answer for Curry with the ball in his hands"? Um....except the Cavaliers. They've done a pretty good job defending him the last two years. Certainly better than anybody else; it's inarguable...
-very convenient and contradictory of you to point out the Cavs are playing "weak and flawed" teams, then later say the Warriors are "cruising" and playing on "regular season" mode. How convenient...
- its an absolute lie to say the Warriors would have the best player in any series they play, assuming they'll play Cleveland, and you know it...
Now, about the "shift" in best player this decade. You're reaching for straws and you know it. A guy can have a great season, have "the best" season, and be worthy of the MVP and still not be the best player in basketball. NBA history is littered with examples of this, we can definitely go backwards from the '10s if your memory is foggy...
Lebron James is the best player in basketball, has been for at minimum the last seven years (2009-10). That's eight seasons, and a very compelling argument can be made for 2008-09, or 2007-08. Other guys having outstanding seasons and winning MVP's doesn't negate that none of those guys have been or are better basketball players than Lebron James:
-Anthony Davis was hyped over future potential and has never, at any point, been the best basketball player in the world...
-Curry captivated attention because while he was always good, nobody foresaw him turning into the juggernaut he became. He had one legendary year that will be remembered forever. He's never been a better basketball player than Lebron. Again, we can pull from an extensive pool of evidence if you'd like...
-Kawhi doesn't have the breadth of Lebron's game yet. He's already a 6-year veteran, and I'd say it's a safe bet he never will, because his playing style is so much different. We can look at regular season and postseason numbers...Kawhi is a star. He's definitely Top 5. Do not insult yourself by saying he's a better basketball player than Lebron...
-James Harden? Lol...
While I'm sure the players will embrace any challenge, it's becoming apparent that the Cavaliers and Lebron are scaring Warriors fans. That became evident when Green decided to mention that the Cavs had an easier road than the Warriors yesterday, even though the competition level has been equal. They have one eye on Cleveland, and are watching perhaps the best version of Lebron James ever. Which is a very scary thought, considering what he's been able to accomplish versus the Warriors the last two years. We are all watching a Cleveland team that everybody, especially the cocky and gleeful Warriors bandwagon, said couldn't "flip the switch", and loudly proclaimed on many boards the Warriors would sweep...
I myself said the Cavs would lose in 5, if they made it that far. I was horribly mistaken...
Don't think for an instant the Warriors aren't observing the sane things we as fans see. I have never seen a more dialed in and intent Lebron, but more than that, I've never seen him so relaxed. End of the day, I'll reiterate that I still don't yet feel they are better than Golden State, and I'm not ready to say they can beat Golden State. But one team has Lebron James and the other one doesn't. Clearly, you are either blinded by homerism or are repeating a defeated mantra to yourself in an attempt to wish it true, but these aren't the regular season Cavs. This isn't the regular season Lebron, and he was great in the regular season...
Everybody sees it. The Warriors see it, too. And though I'd never accuse professional athletes of being fearful, he's got the Warriors fans afraid, and the Warriors are beginning to realize themselves that this isn't a 51-win team they're watching....
Lebron is clearly above Kobe. I think he has cleared Duncan comfortably. He is in rarefied company. Maybe Shaq belongs up there. But it's definitely with Jordan, Magic, Kareem, and Russell--and not with Kobe, Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem.
Bird has a couple fewer championships, Magic played in a much weaker conference. Both are in the same tier of players.
Your entire supposition is laced with bias, but I guess we're all guilty of that some time. Still, allow me to point some things out:
- Your eye test says the Cavs are playing flawed and weak teams, as if the Warriors didn't just play the Blazers and Jazz. Dress it how you wanna dress it, but the Raptors and Jazz had the same record and would probably play each other to 7 games. The Pacers won a game more than the Blazers and those two could probably play each other to 7 games as well. Any "flaw" or "weakness" you can point out in Toronto or Indiana, I guarantee you I can do with Portland and Utah. You don't want to play that game...
-the Cavaliers don't look like a better team than they did in the regular season? Yet, they didn't have an 8-game winning streak all season--they topped out at 6 early in the year. They lead all playoff teams in FG% and 3P%, are t-3rd in 2P%. They've got the #6 DRtg of 16 qualifying playoff teams. That would have made them #11-12 if we extrapolate it to the regular season, if they played to this level then, when they actually finished #21 for DRtg in the 16-17 season. They have the #6 playoff Defensive eFG% (t-19th in regular season)...
The Jazz and Blazers are by no means the Spurs and Rockets. We'll have a much more interesting WCF. But the Jazz and Blazers ran into exactly what the Warriors bring--great defense--even without upping their intensity to Playoffs-level.
As I mentioned, the Cavs have cranked up their offense, mainly by getting to the line and making shots--but they're showing the same defensive flaws. You point to DRtg, but the Cavs playoffs DRtg (109.3) is almost identical to that of the regular season--it would be tied for 19th in the NBA during the regular season (the Cavs actually had 110.3, which was 21st).
Cavs opponents are shooting exactly as well in the playoffs as they did during the regular season. And watching the games, I see a handful of effort plays masking blown rotations and errors in positioning--sometimes. That's not "looking better," which is the media's storyline. It's a few plays that show effort. But most plays show below-average defensive performance for the NBA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
Nobody is claiming they are in full shutdown, great defensive mode. But they are playing better defense. They are definitely playing better overall than they played since maybe December. Are you even watching the games?
I am watching the games. They are not playing better defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
-"no team this far has an answer for Curry with the ball in his hands"? Um....except the Cavaliers. They've done a pretty good job defending him the last two years. Certainly better than anybody else; it's inarguable...
-very convenient and contradictory of you to point out the Cavs are playing "weak and flawed" teams, then later say the Warriors are "cruising" and playing on "regular season" mode. How convenient...
- its an absolute lie to say the Warriors would have the best player in any series they play, assuming they'll play Cleveland, and you know it...
The Warriors are cruising, but like in the regular season, they have the best defense in the playoffs (well, they were a shade behind the Spurs in the regular season). They have more gears, but they don't have to figure out how to play defense--the Cavs do.
In re: answer for Curry: no, the Cavs have shown no answer. Curry's gravity beat the Cavs in '15. Curry's injury lost to the Cavs in '16. The best defense I've ever seen against Curry was Tony Allen in the Conference Semis in '15. Beverly has the talent to deliver that kind of performance.
I think Curry is a better player today than Lebron is. This is not about lifetime achievement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
Now, about the "shift" in best player this decade. You're reaching for straws and you know it. A guy can have a great season, have "the best" season, and be worthy of the MVP and still not be the best player in basketball. NBA history is littered with examples of this, we can definitely go backwards from the '10s if your memory is foggy...
You're simply assuming that the guy you like is better than all other players, even if he doesn't play better. I'd rather rely on the actual play of the players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
Lebron James is the best player in basketball, has been for at minimum the last seven years (2009-10). That's eight seasons, and a very compelling argument can be made for 2008-09, or 2007-08. Other guys having outstanding seasons and winning MVP's doesn't negate that none of those guys have been or are better basketball players than Lebron James:
-Anthony Davis was hyped over future potential and has never, at any point, been the best basketball player in the world...
-Curry captivated attention because while he was always good, nobody foresaw him turning into the juggernaut he became. He had one legendary year that will be remembered forever. He's never been a better basketball player than Lebron. Again, we can pull from an extensive pool of evidence if you'd like...
-Kawhi doesn't have the breadth of Lebron's game yet. He's already a 6-year veteran, and I'd say it's a safe bet he never will, because his playing style is so much different. We can look at regular season and postseason numbers...Kawhi is a star. He's definitely Top 5. Do not insult yourself by saying he's a better basketball player than Lebron...
-James Harden? Lol...
Did you ever watch Anthony Davis in '14-'15? He put it all together and carried a team of castaways to the playoffs with brilliance on both ends of the court. The numbers were fantastic, but the impact was even greater.
Curry had maybe the best single season performance in the history of basketball. His gravity on offense warps defenses beyond recognition. He was, quite obviously, the best player in basketball last year.
Kawhi Leonard is not the same player as Lebron. Why should we expect him to be? He's the league's 2nd best defender, and he is an offensive force, too. His performance this year has been better than Lebron's. That's not an insult. It's just true.
James Harden is an offensive genius. I hate watching him march to the foul line, but he has solved NBA defense. He tries on defense now, and he is no longer abysmal.
The answer isn't "James" because you like him. Other players are better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
While I'm sure the players will embrace any challenge, it's becoming apparent that the Cavaliers and Lebron are scaring Warriors fans. That became evident when Green decided to mention that the Cavs had an easier road than the Warriors yesterday, even though the competition level has been equal. They have one eye on Cleveland, and are watching perhaps the best version of Lebron James ever. Which is a very scary thought, considering what he's been able to accomplish versus the Warriors the last two years. We are all watching a Cleveland team that everybody, especially the cocky and gleeful Warriors bandwagon, said couldn't "flip the switch", and loudly proclaimed on many boards the Warriors would sweep...
The Cavs haven't switched on defense. You need defense to win, especially against good teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
I myself said the Cavs would lose in 5, if they made it that far. I was horribly mistaken...
Don't think for an instant the Warriors aren't observing the sane things we as fans see. I have never seen a more dialed in and intent Lebron, but more than that, I've never seen him so relaxed. End of the day, I'll reiterate that I still don't yet feel they are better than Golden State, and I'm not ready to say they can beat Golden State. But one team has Lebron James and the other one doesn't. Clearly, you are either blinded by homerism or are repeating a defeated mantra to yourself in an attempt to wish it true, but these aren't the regular season Cavs. This isn't the regular season Lebron, and he was great in the regular season...
Everybody sees it. The Warriors see it, too. And though I'd never accuse professional athletes of being fearful, he's got the Warriors fans afraid, and the Warriors are beginning to realize themselves that this isn't a 51-win team they're watching....
I don't think your prediction was mistaken. I've seen nothing from the Cavs that suggests you were. I still think the real finals this year is the WCF. Sure, Lebron's a great player, but the Cavs are not a great team because they don't play good defense. They look more like the D'Antoni Suns than the D'Antoni Rockets.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What must Lebron or any other player do to top Jordan as GOAT?
