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Old 05-18-2017, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
It was worth a title last year no?
It was probably the most memorable play in the 7 game series. But if you have a choice between a great all-around defender and a great chase-down blocker, you take the great all-around defender and never look back.

 
Old 05-18-2017, 02:40 PM
 
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Sure. But if the choice is LeBron and his chase down defense or the best all around defender in the game then you take Lebron. I still think we are under rating LeBron as a defender here. Clearly he saves his energy on that side of the ball most of the time. But he's no slouch when defense is needed. And just his length alone makes him a valuable piece.
 
Old 05-18-2017, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Sure. But if the choice is LeBron and his chase down defense or the best all around defender in the game then you take Lebron. I still think we are under rating LeBron as a defender here. Clearly he saves his energy on that side of the ball most of the time. But he's no slouch when defense is needed. And just his length alone makes him a valuable piece.
You take Lebron because of offense. Defensively, he's not a bad player--but not a notable one, either.
 
Old 05-18-2017, 03:04 PM
 
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Ya, Curry is the best defender we've ever seen though.
 
Old 05-18-2017, 03:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rarog View Post
Ya, Curry is the best defender we've ever seen though.
Best defensive PG in the NBA.
 
Old 05-18-2017, 03:49 PM
 
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lol
 
Old 05-18-2017, 10:59 PM
Status: ""...I wrote it down, now I follow thru..."" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: North Raleigh x North Sacramento
5,770 posts, read 5,531,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
You take Lebron because of offense. Defensively, he's not a bad player--but not a notable one, either.
Lebron isn't a notable defensive player?

For one thing, it has to be mentioned that there was about a five year stretch in which he was a viable DPOY candidate, and it's widely accepted within The League and those who cover it that he probably should, or at least could, have one DPOY. We aren't even far enough removed from that period to where people should be acting as if that defensive Lebron never existed...

Kawhi is a better defender than Lebron now, but we're in here speaking as if defensively, Lebron has slipped from the Top 30 defenders in the NBA. I'm not sure that is accurate, and even if it is from a statistical vantage, it is a serious understatement and disrespect to the reality of his defense. If we polled current NBA plauers, in high pressure scenarios where you need a player to make a clutch defensive play, Lebron is almost certainly making that Top 15. In the biggest of games (e.g. Game 7's) and you had your pick of guys to take the opposing team's best offensive threat in the final two minutes, I'm sure most players would have him comfortably in the Top 10, and it's not a stretch to say many people would have him Top 5....

So I think it's acceptable to note that he's slipped defensively, and that Kawhi is a better defender now. But Lebron's defense hasn't fallen off dramatically, and there s very few players you'd trust more to take the toughest defensive assignment at the highest stress scenarios. This was created over 14 years of defensive consistency, and to act as if the chase down block is the only weapon in his defensive arsenal is completely ludicrous. You and I both know his defensive impact reaches farther than that by a mile....

................

Kawhi Leonard is not close to the player Lebron is. I wouldn't even say that at Year 6 (which is where Kawhi is now) better than Year 6 Lebron:

Year 6 Kawhi
25.5/5.8/3.5/1.8/0.7
.485/.381/.529/.880
.541 eFG%
27.5 PER
.611 TS%
8.9/4.7/13.6 W/S
.264 WSper48
1x champion (1-1 Finals); Finals MVP; 2x All-NBA (both 1st Team); 2x DPOY; 3x All-Defense; 2015 steals leader

Year 6 Lebron
28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1
.489/.344/.535/.780
.530 eFG%
31.7 PER
.591 TS%
13.7/6.5/20.3 W/S
.318 WSper48
0-1 Finals; 2009 MVP; 5x All-NBA (3x 1st Team); 1x All-Defense; 2004 ROY; 2008 scoring champion

I believe people like to forget just how good young Lebron was. Watching present Kawhi DOES NOT=Young Lebron, 6 years in. And that's taking nothing away from Kawhi, he's definitely on a HOF track, but we're comparing him to literally one of the greatest to ever do it...

Pretty much all the numbers and accolades favor Lebron. Numbers aside though, I watched Year 6 Lebron, and I watched Year 6 Kawhi. There's not legitimate comparison to be made that would be fair to Kawhi. The argument can be made that, that Lebron was a better defensive player as well...

Also, people throw out all these players who supposedly are better than Lebron, but having a great season doesnt make you a better player. In all fairness, there is no way Kawhi can be called a better overall player than Lebron. He is probably around #5 right now and clearly we just witnessed the impact he has on the game, but he doesn't touch the game at the level Lebron touches it. Not yet. I really don't understand why this is a debate....

Just to compare, here is 2017 Lebron regular season:

26.4/8.6/8.7/1.2/0.6
.548/.363/.611/.674
.594 eFG%
27.0 PER
.619 TS%
9.8/3.0/12.9 WS
.221 per48

2017 Playoff Kawhi:
27.7/7.8/4.6/1.7/0.5
.525/.455/.551/.931
.587 eFG%
32.6 PER
.672 TS%
2.5/0.5/3.0 WS
.337 per48

2017 Playoff Lebron
34.8/9.0/7.1/2.1/1.3
.560/.434/.609/.738
.620 eFG%
31.6 PER
.662 TS%
1.8/0.6/2.4 WS
.305 per48

Numbers are awfully close, yet still show a slight advantage for LeBron. This is not characteristic of somebody currently better than Lebron, and even if you want to call someone Lebron's equal.....one of these players has been playing at a high level for far longer than the other. The younger player has the burden of proof of having separation of some sort to claim himself as equal to the older player. This year's numbers show no separation as an advantage to Kawhi to warrant him being labeled as any peer to Lebron...

Having a great season, when Lebron himself had a great season, doesn't make anybody a better player than Lebron. The fact of the matter is Lebron has been the best player of his era by a wide, wide margin; he's still the best player in The League by a comfortable margin because of what he can do when the lights and stakes are highest. Until Lebron can no longer be this Lebron anymore, other guys can have great years but they aren't better basketball players than him. He's been around long enough and is accomplished enough to warrant our benefit of doubt...
 
Old 05-19-2017, 07:44 AM
 
3,385 posts, read 2,776,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
You take Lebron because of offense. Defensively, he's not a bad player--but not a notable one, either.
Well you've thrown shade on Lebron's D- even if its slight shade and you've touted Curry's D (a few weeks ago). We see where your bias lies.


I've had the pleasure of watching more Lebron games here than anyone (FoxSports Ohio) for years. The numbers back my statements. Admittedly, I didn't see as much when he left. For the majority of his career he's been the "quarterback" of the defense and they've had some nice defensive squads. BB IQ is well documented- off the charts- there are stories all over the internet about it. Between the chase down blocks, the man up D, the steals (he's charging up the all time list), I'm at loss why there isn't more respect.


Maybe its because he's so darn good offensively?
Maybe folks still point to his handling of the move?
Maybe folks are disgruntled because he forms super teams?


We all get too involved with the comparison game and then downplay one side. Well here it is.
 
Old 05-19-2017, 07:45 AM
 
77,800 posts, read 59,963,843 times
Reputation: 49186
Lotta crap getting thrown around in this thread lol....I swear I can tell when the play-off crowd shows up just by the posts.
 
Old 05-19-2017, 08:21 AM
 
7,019 posts, read 3,712,277 times
Reputation: 3251
I don't expect anything to change tonight in Game 2. Cavs still have multiple players who can shoot the 3 and should win by double digits.
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