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Game winning buzzer beaters mean you were challenged to the very end right? It’s kinda like looking at Jordan in game 7s...he didn’t really get there much.
Listen man, it's a real debate, and legitimately has been since Lebron beat the 73-9 team in 2016, arguably maybe even before then. Supporters of both sides will use arguments that favor their guy (Jordan or Lebron), but it's a real debate. It's no longer something someone can just brush aside and say "oh no, Jordan was ______"....
The Jordan/Lebron debate will outlive Lebron's career and will rage on until someone else with the completeness and domination of both comes along and forces their way into the conversation. I think there's unanimous opinion that both were #1 in their eras, and there's probably a 99% consensus now that Lebron is at minimum Top 4 ever. Who one favors is pretty subjective because they played in different eras, with different rules, different styles of play, and both still managed to dominate their eras. Even Tim Legler, who played against Jordan, said a few days ago that it's razor-thin, and Broussard said a few days ago that he's noticed a growing trend amongst followers of the game and people in the league, there's a growing number of people on the Lebron side...
There will never be uniformity to who was better than who, and anybody's "facts" can all be countered with a point in favor of the other player. I've been saying for years though, and I still maintain this, we all (including the anti-Lebron crowd) are going to miss him when he's gone. It might be awhile before a player of this magnitude comes along again, and when he retires, the players he played with and against are going to speak of him in the same reverie as Jordan's peers did. Book it...
Last edited by murksiderock; 05-05-2018 at 10:29 PM..
Listen man, it's a real debate, and legitimately has been since Lebron beat the 73-9 team in 2016, arguably maybe even before then. Supporters of both sides will use arguments that favor their guy (Jordan or Lebron), but it's a real debate. It's no longer something someone can just brush aside and say "oh no, Jordan was ______"....
The Jordan/Lebron debate will outlive Lebron's career and will rage on until someone else with the completeness and domination of both comes along and forces their way into the conversation. I think there's unanimous opinion that both were #1 in their eras, and there's probably a 99% consensus now that Lebron is at minimum Top 4 ever. Who one favors is pretty subjective because they played in different eras, with different rules, different styles of play, and both still managed to dominate their eras. Even Tim Legler, who played against Jordan, said a few days ago that it's razor-thin, and Broussard said a few days ago that he's noticed a growing trend amongst followers of the game and people in the league, there's a growing number of people on the Lebron side...
There will never be uniformity to who was better than who, and anybody's "facts" can all be countered with a point in favor of the other player. I've been saying for years though, and I still maintain this, we all (including the anti-Lebron crowd) are going to miss him when he's gone. It might be awhile before a player of this magnitude comes along again, and when he retires, the players he played with and against are going to speak of him in the same reverie as Jordan's peers did. Book it...
A lot of people live in the moment - there have been several moments when people have declared “Lebron is now xyz”. It’s better to let the highs fade away so we have a better perspective. If these playoffs turn out to be another 2017 with Lebron being swept in the finals - what are we saying was added to his legacy a few months after everything is done?
And I sort of disagree on the “we will never see another ____” like of thinking. Just look at the last ~50 years...Wilt/Kareem, Magic/Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron. There have always been irreplaceable players to carry the league. They were all unique in their own way, but other players will come along to rival their uniqueness. The media/NBA will also pick their darling which gives a player an edge.
A lot of people live in the moment - there have been several moments when people have declared “Lebron is now xyz”. It’s better to let the highs fade away so we have a better perspective. If these playoffs turn out to be another 2017 with Lebron being swept in the finals - what are we saying was added to his legacy a few months after everything is done?
And I sort of disagree on the “we will never see another ____” like of thinking. Just look at the last ~50 years...Wilt/Kareem, Magic/Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron. There have always been irreplaceable players to carry the league. They were all unique in their own way, but other players will come along to rival their uniqueness. The media/NBA will also pick their darling which gives a player an edge.
Lebron has only been swept in The Finals once, and it wasn't in 2017. It won't be this year, either...
Here's the thing, context has to be given to each argumentative point. Example: Jordan was 6-0 in The Finals. Contextualized: was coached by the GOAT coach, with a player (Pippen) at the time thought of as a Top 30 All-Timer himself, for each of those six wins...
Lebron has lost 5 times in The Finals. Contextualized: 1-2 versus Spurs who were coached by a Top 5 All-Time coach, 1-2 versus a Warriors team that would have beaten almost every team in NBA history with that 73-9 team. Four of his losses are forgiven. Not that they didn't happen (they obviously did), but it isn't like he didn't show up in those losses; it isn't like he had a prime Wade for the length of time Jordan had a prime Pippen; it isn't like he had the organizational talent top to bottom around him that Mike had in the 90s...
You say we live in the moment, what I've noticed is a lot of Jordan backers live in the past. It's an argument that can go either way. Even if he doesn't win this year--and I'm not expecting him to--, you tell me another player in NBA history that could drag a team of this talent level, this far? More than anything, his legacy is the ultimate player who makes everyone better, objectively he bests Mike in that. This Cavs roster maybe wins 35 games without him and isn't even close to competing at this level...
I don't disagree that there will be other greats. I do wonder when we'll see another player like Mike or Lebron completely dominate as individuals, again...
History will be a lot kinder to Lebron when the dust settles and his accomplishments are weighed against his level of difficulty. Jordan wouldn't have a pristine 6-0 record if he played the Warriors in three Finals. He absolutely would have lost one and it's imaginable that the Bulls could have lost 2/3. Jordan wouldn't be 6-0 if he had to play the Spurs three times, either. So when the dust settles, I think most basketball people are aware of this, but when Lebron is gone, history will be a lot more appreciative of what he brought to the game...
Lebron has only been swept in The Finals once, and it wasn't in 2017. It won't be this year, either...
Here's the thing, context has to be given to each argumentative point. Example: Jordan was 6-0 in The Finals. Contextualized: was coached by the GOAT coach, with a player (Pippen) at the time thought of as a Top 30 All-Timer himself, for each of those six wins...
Lebron has lost 5 times in The Finals. Contextualized: 1-2 versus Spurs who were coached by a Top 5 All-Time coach, 1-2 versus a Warriors team that would have beaten almost every team in NBA history with that 73-9 team. Four of his losses are forgiven. Not that they didn't happen (they obviously did), but it isn't like he didn't show up in those losses; it isn't like he had a prime Wade for the length of time Jordan had a prime Pippen; it isn't like he had the organizational talent top to bottom around him that Mike had in the 90s...
You say we live in the moment, what I've noticed is a lot of Jordan backers live in the past. It's an argument that can go either way. Even if he doesn't win this year--and I'm not expecting him to--, you tell me another player in NBA history that could drag a team of this talent level, this far? More than anything, his legacy is the ultimate player who makes everyone better, objectively he bests Mike in that. This Cavs roster maybe wins 35 games without him and isn't even close to competing at this level...
I don't disagree that there will be other greats. I do wonder when we'll see another player like Mike or Lebron completely dominate as individuals, again...
History will be a lot kinder to Lebron when the dust settles and his accomplishments are weighed against his level of difficulty. Jordan wouldn't have a pristine 6-0 record if he played the Warriors in three Finals. He absolutely would have lost one and it's imaginable that the Bulls could have lost 2/3. Jordan wouldn't be 6-0 if he had to play the Spurs three times, either. So when the dust settles, I think most basketball people are aware of this, but when Lebron is gone, history will be a lot more appreciative of what he brought to the game...
2017 was a gentleman’s sweep...might as well be a 4-0 sweep.
Look - the Jordan vs Lebron thing has been beat to death. You can “contextualize” all you want but at the end of the day it all comes down making excuses for why Lebron didn’t win on the level Jordan won. Jordan had Phil, Jordan had Pippen, Lebron played tough teams, Lebron didn’t have enough help, blah, blah, blah.
You’re saying Lebron has already “dragged” a team “this far”? They went 7 games against a young Pacers team and they’re now playing the *Raptors*. It’s funny how when the Cavs are losing Lebron doesn’t have enough help yet when they win it’s because he makes everyone better. It’s like Lebron can’t possibly lose.
Jordan wouldn’t be 3-0 against the Warriors because he was the centerpiece of a team that in their time was even more dominant than the Warriors. In the 90s, if you aren’t on the team Jordan’s on you know you’re probably losing. I imagine if players are honest they might have the same feeling about any team featuring a double headed snake in Durant/Curry.
The goal should always be for another player to beat you besides the team's player.
The goal is to contest shots. Arguably one the best areas of his game (when this area is forced on him) is making the great pass to a teammate. I don’t see any D-Leaguers out there blowing layups
If Lebron hits a fadeaway jumper off of one foot- time to tip your cap.
The goal is to contest shots. Arguably one the best areas of his game (when this area is forced on him) is making the great pass to a teammate. I don’t see any D-Leaguers out there blowing layups
If Lebron hits a fadeaway jumper off of one foot- time to tip your cap.
No time to re-evaluate the coach. I bet you brad Stevens would have his team double lebron if it came to that next round
It took LeBron 7 games to beat Indiana, and he's gonna sweep the Raptors. This isn't even about him it's about how bad Toronto mentally collapses in the postseasons and values the regular season more than going on a title run.
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