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Old 01-28-2020, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,933 posts, read 34,438,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
He was also one of the best ever at making the guy he was guarding better.

Otherwise, looking at the list of seasonal assist leaders you come away with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ssists_leaders

Stockton 9
Cousy 8
Big O 6
Kidd\Nash 5
Magic 4 (2 other guys had that)

I'd go with those 6 guys and tie Magic and Nash at 5th.

It's such a tough pick because assists hurts the guys that were beastly scorers or more hybrid types while Stockton was more of your classic floor general.

Like imagine the assist numbers someone like Lebron, Jordan, Kobe etc. would put up if that was their focus instead of putting up 30 points.
This is why I don't put that much stock in assist tallies. Nearly everyone would agree Westbrook should not be considered a Top 5 passer, but his peak and career assist numbers aren't far off from Steve Nash's (0.1 difference to be exact). He arguably could have easily averaged a couple of more assists had he not been putting up 25-30 points a game most seasons. We couldn't imagine a scenario where a guy averages, say, 28 PPG for his career and not be in the conversation for greatest scorers. John Wall is #6 on the all-time career APG list but we haven't heard a single peep about him.

So in that sense, I think assists are a bit overrated. Talent and court vision-wise, I don't think guys like Stockton or Paul are any better than Rondo if better at all. But this is an opinion that can't really be supported with empirical evidence. With scoring, it's simply a matter of which guy puts the ball in the bucket more.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:28 AM
 
3,393 posts, read 5,258,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
You guys need to youtube both Pistol Pete and Larry Bird because for my money, I'm taking them # 1 and # 2 over everyone else. And that's not to take away from Magic, Kidd, Nash or any of these other great passers....

Why larry bird? He and Magic played against each other in their prime and Magic dominated the NBA in assists. Bird's greatness came from perimeter shooting. His outside shot was what struck fear in us Laker fans and the players--not his passing ability.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
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I saw someone make a perfect alley oop pass from well beyond half court just the other day. Think it may have been Rickey Rubio, but I can't recall for sure. I never saw Magic or Stockton do anything like that.
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Old 01-28-2020, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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I'll propose Jokic as the best passing center of all time, even in his youth. Granted, he has more opportunities to get assists in today's game than previous bigs, but the timing, fluidity and variety of his passes is not something I have ever seen in a player that large.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subPrimeTime View Post
Add Steve Nash in there. He was great at going baseline, weaving in and out of traffic to make a play. As the classic line goes, he "made his teammates better".
Steve Nash is definitely one of the greatest. Many young people don't know about Mark Price though. He always seemed like the precursor to Steve Nash to me. Steve Nash before Steve Nash lol. Just an awesome player.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-e-Mdy98LAc

And if your talking strictly highlight passers, Jason Williams has to be at the top:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8b0XbtpFsA
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:25 PM
 
758 posts, read 546,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So in that sense, I think assists are a bit overrated. Talent and court vision-wise, I don't think guys like Stockton or Paul are any better than Rondo if better at all. But this is an opinion that can't really be supported with empirical evidence. With scoring, it's simply a matter of which guy puts the ball in the bucket more.
Not really. Its a matter of which person puts the ball in the bucket more per shot they take.

So, bad scorer = 25 points, going 9 for 20 from 2, 1 for 5 from 3, and 4 for 7 from the free throw line.
Good scorer = 25 points, going 9 for 14 from 2, 1 for 2 from 3, and 4 for 4 from the free throw line.

This matters because if "bad scorer" takes (20 two-point + 5 three-point) 25 shots to get 25 pts, they are costing the team up to 9 lost possessions to get the same output compared to the good scorer (who only takes 16 shots).

On the playground all most people look at is how many times the person put the ball in the bucket. Fortunately, teams have wised up and high volume scorers are no longer in demand.

(NOTE: I agree with what you said about assists.)
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,933 posts, read 34,438,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocSciProf View Post
Not really. Its a matter of which person puts the ball in the bucket more per shot they take.

So, bad scorer = 25 points, going 9 for 20 from 2, 1 for 5 from 3, and 4 for 7 from the free throw line.
Good scorer = 25 points, going 9 for 14 from 2, 1 for 2 from 3, and 4 for 4 from the free throw line.

This matters because if "bad scorer" takes (20 two-point + 5 three-point) 25 shots to get 25 pts, they are costing the team up to 9 lost possessions to get the same output compared to the good scorer (who only takes 16 shots).

On the playground all most people look at is how many times the person put the ball in the bucket. Fortunately, teams have wised up and high volume scorers are no longer in demand.

(NOTE: I agree with what you said about assists.)
Even an inefficient 26 PPG over the course of an entire career puts you in the conversation for "greatest scorers" (Ex: Iverson).
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Even an inefficient 26 PPG over the course of an entire career puts you in the conversation for "greatest scorers" (Ex: Iverson).
Not really. Basketball reference puts Eddie Jones at similar to Iverson. Eddie Jones is not in the conversation of greatest scorers. And neither is Iverson. I mean, really.

Here are the players similar to Iverson: Eddie Jones, Jeff Hornacek, Hersey Hawkins, Sam Jones, Terry Porter, Hal Greer, Vince Carter, Kyle Lowery, Manu Ginobili, George Gervin. Two Hall of Famers. And, only 1 of his "comparables" (Gervin) is in the discussion of greatest scorer, and only 2 or 3 others would even be allowed to look into the room in which the "Greatest Scorer" discussion was happening.

Here are the players similar to Bird: Bob Petit, Kevin Durant, Dolph Schayes, Charles Barkley, Kevin Garnett, Julius Erving, Adrian Dantley, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, Bailey Howell. Every player Hall of Fame eligible is in the Hall of Fame. And during their careers opponents schemed to stop those players, clearly they were great scorers with gravity.

Here are the players similar to Magic: Jerry West, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Roberston, James Harden, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Chauncey Billups, Clyde Drexler. The weakest player on the list is Billups, and every one else who is no longer playing is in the Hall of Fame (except Kobe, which will happen as soon as he is eligible).

So, no, 26 inefficient points does not get you into the "Greatest Scorers" conversation. It would, however, get you into the conversation of "Most Annoying Ball Hogs" (a discussion that includes players like Monte Ellis). People were dazzled by the amazing wizardry of Iverson. But the effects of all that wizardry (for a point guard) were just a slight cut above second-tier at best (e.g., no championships, only 1 finals appearance, during a period of time not dominated by 1 dynasty).
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,933 posts, read 34,438,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocSciProf View Post
Not really. Basketball reference puts Eddie Jones at similar to Iverson.
What are you talking about? Eddie Jones averaged 14.8 PPG. He's not even in the Top 250 highest point per game scorers in NBA history. Iverson is 7th on the NBA's all-time scoring per game list (behind only MJ, Wilt, Baylor, Lebron, West and KD).

So hell yes, Iverson is definitely in the conversation since the only guys ahead of him are as elite as they come. His efficiency (or lack thereof) doesn't even matter since only a handful of players in NBA history have played more than 10 seasons and averaged more than 25 PPG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SocSciProf View Post
But the effects of all that wizardry (for a point guard) were just a slight cut above second-tier at best (e.g., no championships, only 1 finals appearance, during a period of time not dominated by 1 dynasty).
Who cares about the effects? You guys are always straying off topic. The question is not whether Allen Iverson belongs in the GOAT discussion. The question is whether he belongs in the conversation about the greatest scorers in NBA history. The answer to that question, IMO, is obviously "yes." Among the things you noted about him, you failed to mention that he was a FOUR TIME scoring champion, which seems a bit more relevant to the discussion at hand than championships. How can a man be tied at 3rd (with KD and Gervin) for most scoring titles and not even be in the conversation for top scorers in league history? How many scoring titles does Eddie Jones have?

We should also note that Iverson has the 2nd highest playoff scoring average of all time behind Michael Jordan. But I guess that doesn't even get him into the conversation because Eddie Jones clearly could have done the same thing.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-29-2020 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,787,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocSciProf View Post
Not really. Basketball reference puts Eddie Jones at similar to Iverson. Eddie Jones is not in the conversation of greatest scorers. And neither is Iverson. I mean, really.

Here are the players similar to Iverson: Eddie Jones, Jeff Hornacek, Hersey Hawkins, Sam Jones, Terry Porter, Hal Greer, Vince Carter, Kyle Lowery, Manu Ginobili, George Gervin. Two Hall of Famers. And, only 1 of his "comparables" (Gervin) is in the discussion of greatest scorer, and only 2 or 3 others would even be allowed to look into the room in which the "Greatest Scorer" discussion was happening.

Here are the players similar to Bird: Bob Petit, Kevin Durant, Dolph Schayes, Charles Barkley, Kevin Garnett, Julius Erving, Adrian Dantley, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, Bailey Howell. Every player Hall of Fame eligible is in the Hall of Fame. And during their careers opponents schemed to stop those players, clearly they were great scorers with gravity.

Here are the players similar to Magic: Jerry West, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Roberston, James Harden, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Chauncey Billups, Clyde Drexler. The weakest player on the list is Billups, and every one else who is no longer playing is in the Hall of Fame (except Kobe, which will happen as soon as he is eligible).

So, no, 26 inefficient points does not get you into the "Greatest Scorers" conversation. It would, however, get you into the conversation of "Most Annoying Ball Hogs" (a discussion that includes players like Monte Ellis). People were dazzled by the amazing wizardry of Iverson. But the effects of all that wizardry (for a point guard) were just a slight cut above second-tier at best (e.g., no championships, only 1 finals appearance, during a period of time not dominated by 1 dynasty).
I don’t agree with hardly any of your similar players for Iverson, Bird, or Magic. Iverson is a 6ft (at best) scoring PG. Eddie Jones is like 6’9. Hornacek and Hawkins were pure SG who never played PG and didn’t have a fraction of the speed or dribbling skills as Iverson. Tim Duncan, Barkley, and Garnett similar to Bird???? Those 3 were all PFs (Duncan and Garnett both nearly 7ft), whereas Bird was a prototypical SF and one of the best shooters ever. Chauncey Billips similar to Magic?? Even as great as Kobe was he was not similar to Magic in any way. Magic was a 6’9 PG (one of the most unique players ever; Penny Hardaway is the only similar player that comes to mind). Kobe is one of the most pure SG. In no way similar to Magic.

Unless I missed what you meant by similar, your comparisons are way off.
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