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I'd do some serious house cleaning at the DOE, give more autonomy and accountability... and funding!... to the principals of the schools.
The fish stinks from the head: HI public school principals are mostly appointed union members, way over their head with the actual demands of the job. The vice principals do the heavy lifting, yet also get axed first when some action has to be shown to the DOE, angry parents or to renew federal funding.
Sadly, the HI public schools show the results of decades of uninterrupted one party politics. Hence the internal doings become indecipherable from political decision making; more being considered quarrels, personal favors, nepotism or simple animosities.
Lack of parental involvement, bullying, discipline deficiencies, etc in educational scenarios are often secondary effects of a shrinking middle class. Fewer traditional family structures and long term multigenerational households simply have it easier to teach respect, chores, common sense, support, and planning than a single mom, stressed with two half-day jobs. But over the last decades a middle, even upper-lower class has disappeared from Hawaii county, along with the few manufacturing and most agricultural jobs.
Aside from that, we are dealing with a fully wired generation of teens, who are in communicado with each other 24/7 and therefore stressed beyond belief. The twelve year old girl who is not at the ready to talk boyfriend issues with her BFF at 3am will get an earful the next day. Yes, her teachers and parents are interested in her education, but do they have a clue of the forces she deals with everyday? I shut my facebook account because I couldn't deal with my family and friends stupid debates anymore. But a young boy or girl is totally unprepared to dissect the new media and put things into perspective. Education certainly is the victim here.
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Originally Posted by OpenD
...undergraduate college education should be ... to teach people to think and to lead a rounded and productive life.
I absolutely disagree with this one. Being i.e. an engineer or architect doesn't guarantee a rounded and productive life, but greatly enables one to acquire it. Getting a PHD in feminist writing or an art history bachelor though, leaves them foremost with student loans for the rest of their professional careers. Which most likely will be not in the acquired field. It's an easy way out of responsibility for parents to step back and give in to a young mind passionately pleading to have a 'rounded' life versus an applicable profession. And yes, if your son is really so set about becoming a playwright, he will succeed against you trying to stop him with all the best arguments in the world. Or give up before any damage is done. This healthy process is as old as mankind and proven to be the most effective. Schools here in Hawaii don't do this--they encourage a self-realization of the 1980's kind towards a by default half-abandoned generation of students.
Then you have banks not differentiating their student loans. The more loans the banks can hand out, the better they can bundle them and resell them as derivatives or other fancy-named instruments. The lenders SHOULD do some curricular evaluation and declare high and low risk loan rates depending on what the student intends to study. Who as a good parent wants to see their child writing away its future to a friggin' bank under the umbrella of self-realization?!? It's selling your child into guaranteed modern day slavery to your local Starbucks and McDonalds at an hourly wage. Or quietly hoping that, when all fails, the journalism daughter would still marry a successful doctor, and she could then in turn raise the grandchildren along your dream of self realization.
Last edited by KaraBenNemsi; 06-20-2013 at 01:32 AM..
You get what you pay for - if you are going to pay teachers in Hawaii between $45-55K - then you aren't going to get a quality pool of candidates. Many good teachers - teach because they have a spouse who has a good income - and other teachers teach because of passion of the job - but that pool is a small subset of the overall teacher pool. Many great teachers aren't employed in Hawaii because they simply can't afford to live here on the meager wages offered by the DOE.
The fish stinks from the head: HI public school principals are mostly appointed union members, way over their head with the actual demands of the job. The vice principals do the heavy lifting, yet also get axed first when some action has to be shown to the DOE, angry parents or to renew federal funding.
Got any references for that?
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Sadly, the HI public schools show the results of decades of uninterrupted one party politics. Hence the internal doings become indecipherable from political decision making; more being considered quarrels, personal favors, nepotism or simple animosities.
How about for that?
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Aside from that, we are dealing with a fully wired generation of teens, who are in communicado with each other 24/7 and therefore stressed beyond belief. The twelve year old girl who is not at the ready to talk boyfriend issues with her BFF at 3am will get an earful the next day. Yes, her teachers and parents are interested in her education, but do they have a clue of the forces she deals with everyday? I shut my facebook account because I couldn't deal with my family and friends stupid debates anymore. But a young boy or girl is totally unprepared to dissect the new media and put things into perspective. Education certainly is the victim here.
I'm not sure what you are saying. How is the school system responsible for any of this? This seems to me to be entirely in the parent's lap.
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Originally Posted by OpenD
...undergraduate college education should be ... to teach people to think and to lead a rounded and productive life.
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Originally Posted by KaraBenNemsi
I absolutely disagree with this one. Being i.e. an engineer or architect doesn't guarantee a rounded and productive life, but greatly enables one to acquire it.
I see several problems with that viewpoint, because real life just doesn't seem to work that way for most people.
First, according to a survey at Purdue, 80% of incoming freshmen don't really know what kind of a career they want. So they mostly just pick something, anything, because they are supposed to, often based on what their parents want to hear. And unless a student has a burning passion to be an architect or an engineer or another professional of some kind, the odds of their even graduating in the same major they started out with are less than 50%.
Then, according to a study at Duke, at 5 years after graduation 83% have changed jobs, and 43% have changed careers.
I guess we'll have to ask Jonah K to take a pass at calculating the resulting statistic, but even without a number it's clear to me that only a small percentage of students actually wind up 5 years out in the career they began working towards as freshmen. And we haven't even discussed how many times they are likely to change careers over a lifetime. To me this means that the most valuable survival skills for people to get from their undergraduate education are the broad abilities that allow them to find their place in a rapidly changing workplace: learning to think critically... learning how to learn... learning to communicate well... in other words, a well rounded classic education.
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Getting a PHD in feminist writing or an art history bachelor though, leaves them foremost with student loans for the rest of their professional careers.
I did say I was talking about undergraduate education. I'm personally not in favor of people going on to graduate school, if they do at all, until they've had at least a couple of years working in the real world. At that point they're going to be in a much better position to choose a profession to work toward, with some chance of having it stick.
And I think that for the long term health of the country we need to find better ways to fund advanced education, so that new grads aren't starting out in life with back-breaking debt. Slashing the administrative overgrowth that has led to such staggering rises in tuition costs in recent years is a priority. And cutting the loan rates is another, obviously. I mean, it's about as low-risk as lending gets, when they can seize your income tax refunds, and even your social security payment if necessary to collect. So student loan rates should be low. And yes, there should be more straight talk about costs and payback opportunities.
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It's an easy way out of responsibility for parents to step back and give in to a young mind passionately pleading to have a 'rounded' life versus an applicable profession. And yes, if your son is really so set about becoming a playwright, he will succeed against you trying to stop him with all the best arguments in the world. Or give up before any damage is done. This healthy process is as old as mankind and proven to be the most effective. Schools here in Hawaii don't do this--they encourage a self-realization of the 1980's kind towards a by default half-abandoned generation of students.
How do you think they do that? Again, how is the public school system responsible?
This is not wikipedia, but an opinion and subjective experience driven forum.
References: - Guiding a bunch of kids through various public schools in Hawaii and NY. Multiple off-the-records conversations with teachers, parents, PTA, and staff.
- Observations of decision making and coming to logical conclusions by 10 years of reading the near daily reports about Hawaii's educational misery.
- Experiencing in the NYC of the 90s how healthy (any) political change to a stagnant educational system is.
Bullying: For parents and schools it's nowadays more important to edit and restrict private and public information flow to children than supplying the means to it (cellphones, iPads, etc). Overload and impulse driven communication leads to depression, overall distraction, aggression, panic, fragile self esteem, less respect, self destruction, anti social behavior, authority issues, etc of a developing young mind. For references I advice a general google scholar search to find the respective studies. Or interpreting the rapidly increasing numbers of folks dropping their Facebook accounts.
The point for getting an applicable undergraduate degree still stands. Doesn't matter if the majority is switching later to something else for whatever reason. Flexibility in professional career choice is always important. But switching from some basic science degree to a more liberal science oriented later job is easier and more economically viable than the other way around.
I am with you on getting better trade schools established. When i see what i.e. bakers, electricians, or carpenter 3 year apprentice programs teach to 14, 15 year olds in middle European countries, I am blown away. These careers end in well rounded experts of the respective trade, with state and federal exams, and resulting in long term employment or owned companies. Plus if one decides to go back into grad school after an apprentice ship is completed, one gets credits for this. Those professional careers then help and sustain middle classes. Also build a healthy reservoir of labor for large companies who in turn can offer long term work contracts to these well trained employees.
Last edited by KaraBenNemsi; 06-20-2013 at 04:43 PM..
This is not wikipedia, but an opinion and subjective experience driven forum.
Perhaps. But facts do count, and it appeared to me that you made those statements as if they were facts, rather than identifying them as your personal subjective opinions. That's why I asked.
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References: - Guiding a bunch of kids through various public schools in Hawaii and NY. Multiple off-the-records conversations with teachers, parents, PTA, and staff.
OK, so you've had personal experiences with a couple of schools in Hawai'i. But generalizing that limited experience out to an entire system of, according to the DOE, about 300 schools, in a variety of very different communities?
That's why in dealing with complex issues like this I like to see facts and in-depth analysis from an objective perspective, whenever possible. I'm not saying you are wrong... I just haven't seen enough information to evaluate how accurate or inaccurate you might be in your assessment.
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- Experiencing in the NYC of the 90s how healthy (any) political change to a stagnant educational system is.
Sidebar: As a personal subjective opinion, I guessed from your first post on this forum that you were from NYC. Maybe it was the accent.
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Bullying: For parents and schools it's nowadays more important to edit and restrict private and public information flow to children than supplying the means to it (cellphones, iPads, etc). Overload and impulse driven communication leads to depression, overall distraction, aggression, panic, fragile self esteem, less respect, self destruction, anti social behavior, authority issues, etc of a developing young mind. For references I advice a general google scholar search to find the respective studies.
Again, I personally think this is off on a tangent. What does all that have to do with the public school system in Hawai'i?
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Or interpreting the rapidly increasing numbers of folks dropping their Facebook accounts.
According to the studies I've read, including the recent Pew study, the main reason users give for quitting Facebook are that it has become too big a time-suck for them, and that they find it boring. And the main reason teens give is because they really don't want to be on the same site where their mom is. So they're switching to Twitter, Tumblr, and other sites.
My own experience is that parents who communicate well with their kids, and spend time discussing the issues don't experience the same problems as parents who don't. Explicitly discussing teen issues, and addressing bullying... in whatever form it may take... and sex and drugs, while fostering a healthy attitude is key. The main responsibility of the schools in this regard, as I see it, is to maintain a safe and supportive environment, and to monitor and intervene in any physical or psychological bullying on campus. The rest is up to the parents, in my opinion.
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I am with you on getting better trade schools established.
I think the Community College system is a key to economic viability for a lot of young people. The Culinary program in North Hilo is a good example of a program that clearly works. There are jobs waiting for their graduates. And since the state says that 1 out of every 5 jobs in Hawai'i is related to the tourist trade, hospitality and hotel management training would seem to be a natural to offer here. There was an interesting proposal made to do just that at the recently refurbished Volcano House Inn, but the proposal was rejected by the National Park Service. In any case, cooperation between the high schools and the trade schools is critical, so that kids who are not expecting to go to college have a good option for enhancing their employability.
But to get back to the point Viper made, if a teacher has 30 kids in their classroom, and that results in a $390,000 allocation to the school for the year, why in the heck is that teacher only getting paid about 10% of it? They are the frontline of the whole system, the daily contact with the kids, the interface for learning. Why are they getting paid so little? No wonder it's so hard to recruit and to hold onto great teachers. A lot of qualified people who might consider the job just can't afford to take it!
Maybe now that the Governor has taken on accountability, and appointed a new Board of Education, I'm hopeful that priorities can be rearranged intelligently, and that important details like this can be reviewed, and wherever possible corrected.
it's so hard to recruit and to hold onto great teachers
What is a great teacher? We two probably won't agree, so why shouldn't it be controversial for the rest of the nation? In addition, performance based evaluation is opposed by the teachers union, meaning they don't want to be considered 'good' or 'bad' by whatever measurements could be taken. As is mandatory drug testing for obvious reasons.
Yes, the answer to a bad education system or to raise children is foremost with the parents. Me and my wife spent godforsaken hours and nights with our brood to get them on the right track. To the point were we pried them out of the physical public schools and got them into online schools. But one parent had to be there for them all the time. This is the price you pay and most households are single or both parents have jobs on this island. Best answer is to have enough money for private schools, or have a stay at home mom with a college degree to assist the little ones. This is not an option for our local community--schools are child care AND education at the same time.
The public school system with physical buildings, staff, cafeteria, sports facilities, and transportation will collapse under its own weight by being too costly and consistently underperforming. First will be high schools, which can already be held online.
Therefore back to the original post: Sillylillybaby is well advised to start her kids with an online school. Social or sports activities can still be done in addition with established schools in her neighborhood, if she so wishes.
This is a very good question! One that my friends from high school and I tackled not too long ago. We asked who was what we considered to be a great teacher, one who really taught us a lot. We could each only come up with a couple teachers that fit the bill and NONE of us agreed on any of them. My best friend named a teacher that she considered to be the very best and her mentor as she is now a teacher herself. I found that teacher to be one of my very worst!
Great teachers set high expectations for all students. They expect that all students can and will achieve in their classroom, and they don't give up on underachievers.
Great teachers have clear, written-out objectives. Effective teachers have lesson plans that give students a clear idea of what they will be learning, what the assignments are and what the grading policy is. Assignments have learning goals and give students ample opportunity to practice new skills. The teacher is consistent in grading and returns work in a timely manner.
Great teachers are prepared and organized. They are in their classrooms early and ready to teach. They present lessons in a clear and structured way. Their classrooms are organized in such a way as to minimize distractions.
Great teachers engage students and get them to look at issues in a variety of ways. Effective teachers use facts as a starting point, not an end point; they ask "why" questions, look at all sides and encourage students to predict what will happen next. They ask questions frequently to make sure students are following along. They try to engage the whole class, and they don't allow a few students to dominate the class. They keep students motivated with varied, lively approaches.
Great teachers form strong relationships with their students and show that they care about them as people. Great teachers are warm, accessible, enthusiastic and caring. Teachers with these qualities are known to stay after school and make themselves available to students and parents who need them. They are involved in school-wide committees and activities, and they demonstrate a commitment to the school.
Great teachers are masters of their subject matter. They exhibit expertise in the subjects they are teaching and spend time continuing to gain new knowledge in their field. They present material in an enthusiastic manner and instill a hunger in their students to learn more on their own.
Great teachers communicate frequently with parents. They reach parents through conferences and frequent written reports home. They don't hesitate to pick up the telephone to call a parent if they are concerned about a student.
What makes a great teacher? I'd settle for a teacher who can keep the classroom under control and can motivate the students to learn correct information. There are few enough of that kind without trying to get all "great" teachers.
The only truly great teacher I had, all the students absolutely hated him. He made us work and learn. He was hard work. I am so grateful now that I was in his class, but wow, did I ever resent him at the time.
I think any problems in Hawaiian or any other schools are the parents. Parents that do not value education will have kids that do not value education. If the parents and students do not value education, the results from the schools will be poor.
In Fairfax County we have some of the best schools in the nation. But I think it is due to the education level and value of education held by the parents. My wife is a teacher in Fairfax and she can tell the motivated parents from the unmotivated ones.
I would not blame the teachers or the state, they cannot counteract the attitudes of the parents.
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