Moving to Alabama - My Honest Thoughts (Birmingham, Huntsville: college, salary)

[White Wine]

I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have spent most of my adult life in the New York/New Jersey area. And of course I visit home several times a year, so I just thought I'd offer some commentary -

Originally Posted by Alabama Transplant

1. Renting - D
I have to give Alabama a "D" for renting. I would recommend buying if you plan to stay here for some time. I had the ambition to rent a SFH with a backyard. I tried myself to find this house. My budget was $900/mo - $1200/mo. I was absolutely appalled at the condition of houses shown to me in the Southside, Crestline, and even Homewood areas. I really think this was bad luck and my experience was very unique. Having talked to people who have moved to the area, they had better experiences, but still relayed stories of being shown houses in poor quality.

Using an agency, I was able to find a house in Calera, AL for $1100. The house is STUNNING via the eye test. It is located in a very safe sub-division. I would highly recommend being very selective about your agency if you go that route. They were incredibly nice when we were being shown the house. Once we moved in, the agency (which also manages the properties) treated our problems as us bothering them. We have contacted them about 4 times in 7 months. These problems included breaking/broken blinds, a malfunctioning central Air system, a rodent issue, and an issue with hot water. I was shocked at the level of disrespect shown to us by the management company. We were even told that we were responsible for these issues and therefore pay for it. Only when we challenged them, did anything get done. We have a sterling rental history and have never had one issue in the past with our landlords. We report problems, as that is our duty as renters. We do not ask for refunds or rent reductions. All we ask are that the problems are fixed within a reasonable timeframe.

If you are renting, move into a complex with a good reputation. If you have kids, buy a house. I would highly recommend not renting a house. You are generally inheriting someone's neglect. Even in a nice sub-division with beautiful homes, a 10 year old home can have some pretty big issues. If you must rent a home, test all the utilities first and make sure there are no issues. The rental agents will absolutely brush everything concern off when you are being shown the house. They will make up some lame excuse on the spot and lie to your face. I thought the rental agent was so nice and trustworthy, that I believed her lies. DO NOT IGNORE RED FLAGS!! I cannot wait until this lease is over. We plan to move to an apartment complex and hope for better results there.

Admittedly, I have not rented property in Alabama, because again, I've pretty much spent my adult life up north. So I can't really comment on this, other than to say that I've heard transplants from other parts of the country say that Alabama's landlord-tenant laws tend to heavily favor the landlord, which is the exact opposite of how it is in New Jersey, where I currently live. So I'll just say that other transplants have echoed your sentiments and leave it at that.

2. Things to Do - B+
I have found that there are diverse and unique things to do in Central Alabama and Birmingham. I truly believe that there is something for everyone in this area. You can do all your outdoor activities and there is just enough entertainment to come through town. While not on the level of a major city like Chicago, I feel as though I learn something every single day about this region that fascinates and excites me. The history is very interesting. Birmingham is the perfect launch point to exploring the South. You can get to most major destinations within 7 hours. If I didn't have to work and spent my days exploring this area, I would be very happy.

Agreed.

3. Commuting - F
I commute on the 65 north to Hoover from Calera. 95% of the drivers are fine. The other 5% are unbelievably dangerous. I believe that this is because you simply must have a car to get around. I think 5% of people are emotionally or mentally unable to operate a complicated machine like a car. But the lack of a decent public transportation system puts these people on the road. It is a difficult

You will get used to the lack of a turn signal quickly. You will learn to leave plenty of space for chronic lane changers. You will encounter a higher amount of drunk drivers than what you are used to. You will see close calls almost every day and occasionally you will have a close call as well. You will learn to give up and just get out of the way of excessive speeders. I highly recommend keeping a commute to a bare minimum. Here is what I have had happen in 8 months:

*Ran over a muffler that had fallen off a van two cars ahead of me.
*Barely avoided a ladder that had fallen off some guys truck
*Had someones blown out tire hit my windshield and I basically had to drive blind for 10 seconds.
*Narrowly missed an accident with an F250 that was swerving due to an overloaded cargo trailer. That one was really close.
*Run off the road by a trucker - twice

You'll pass by quite a few abandoned cars/SUVs as well. You will probably see a car on fire every now and then. You'll encounter numerous accidents. You simply must be a defensive driver out here. Bottom line. MOVE SOMEWHERE THAT IS CLOSE TO YOUR WORK!

I don't doubt that any of this is true. There are a lot of bad drivers in Alabama. But there's a difference between bad drivers in Alabama and bad drivers say, here in the Northeast (NYC, Philly, etc). Nine times out of ten, what makes a driver terrible in Alabama is carelessness and lack of awareness. Southern drivers tend to be aloof - they have their heads in a cloud and aren't aware of what's going on. So yes, I could very easily see how that could translate into heavy items falling off of a truck, because some redneck didn't take the time to secure something properly.

But bad driving in a large, densely populated city like Chicago or NYC is a whole other level of frustration. It is not rooted in carelessness, it is rooted in a nasty combination of aggressiveness, disregard for traffic laws, and downright stupidity. And I agree with Tourian.........what you would experience in Chicago or NYC is orders of magnitude worse than the simple carelessness exhibited by Alabama drivers.

4. Work Ethic - C
It's a very interesting work ethic out here. You have folks who go above and beyond. People who strive to get better and have a laser focus on what there job is. Then you have the other side of the work ethic. There is a culture of laziness that can infect a business out here. It's not a racial thing, it goes across all spectrums. Especially in the $10/hr - $16/hr range. Because unemployment is so low in the area I work in, it's really no problem for the lazies to get fired. It takes a looooong time to re-fill the position in that wage range, and the pool of talent is unimpressive with ZERO ambition. It happens higher on the economic spectrum as well. I've had to terminate 4 salespeople in the $40 - $60k range for not following up with the basic functions of the job. This included not sending out contracts, not contacting clients, lying about what tasks they have completed, and not showing up for work.

People who care about their job and take pride in what they do find themselves doing other peoples job a lot. I have found that people who have this superior work ethic are not born/raised in the area. The ones that are born and raised in Alabama seem to have this culture of laziness. As with everything, that doesn't mean everyone is lazy who is from Alabama.

I would submit to you that what you have found in Alabama is not a lack of work ethic, but simply lower expectations. As another poster pointed out, the elite career-driven people of the world do not work in Birmingham. They work on Wall Street, or Silicon Valley, or at least Atlanta. Birmingham is simply not one of those large, type-A personality filled cities. It's a city where people stay if they don't want to work on Wall Street because they want to remain close to family. Or maybe they re-locate from a big city because they want out of the rat race. So yes, frankly, it's rare that you're going to find that super career-oriented, type-A person there, because usually those people have other options, even if it's just 2 hours down the road in Atlanta.

Birmingham is a good place to live if you want to have a decent career, make decent money, and maintain a good quality of life at a low cost. Bonus points if you're from the area because that means you'll at least be closed to family as well. Could Birmingham change? Yeah but such a change would be years down the road.

5. The People - B
I find people from Alabama to be kind, caring, and much more intelligent than the rest of the country thinks. Alabama is often a punchline to the rest of the country, and I take major exception to that. People are willing to help you adjust to the area. I find people from Alabama to be really witty and fun. I enjoy spending my time with the people out here. They do talk behind your back, but once you realize that everyone gets that treatment, it's not really that big of a deal. People who live in Alabama are very hospitable and will go out of there way to make sure that you know where the best of everything is. They are brutally honest about their city and state, the good the bad and the ugly. They don't blow smoke up your ass about living out here.

But there is an attitude that someone else is to blame for everything. I find people don't like to be held accountable for their actions out here.

For the most part, yeah. I don't have much to say about this, other than the fact that it is true that people in Birmingham tend to be VERY pessimistic about the city. I always say that Birmingham is a city with low self-esteem. If Birmingham were a person, it would have chronic depression, because it's always beating itself up because it's not Atlanta, it's not Charlotte, it's not Nashville, etc. But the truth of the matter is, Birmingham does have a unique character and history that very few natives appreciate.

6. Crime - N/A
The neighborhoods here are intricate. Some are safe and some are not. It can literally turn on a dime within a few blocks. A nice neighborhood turns into a bad neighborhood sometimes by street. There is a crime problem, but it's more limited to people who are looking for trouble or should know better. Overall, I have not had any issue with crime since I've been here.

Unfortunately, Birmingham has one of the highest violent crime rates in the nation. Homicide, rape, assault, and robbery are particularly serious problems there. Auto theft and gangs, not so much. Yes, Birmingham has gangs, but they really are just neighborhood gangs. I'm willing to bet you a lot of money that anybody in Birmingham who claims to be a Crip or Blood has no ties whatsoever to real Crips and Bloods out in California. It's just dumb kids imitating what they see on TV or hear on a rap song.

But Birmingham's crime is hard to describe. Though the numbers show that it is a serious problem, I'd much rather be in a high crime neighborhood in Birmingham than a similar neighborhood in say, Baltimore, Newark, or Oakland, even though crime stats show all four cities have comparable levels of violent crime. Maybe it's because I know Birmingham better since it's my hometown? I don't know. I feel like the vast majority of crime in Birmingham is inter-personal violence. I really think random acts of violence against complete strangers is a rare thing in Birmingham. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

7. Healthcare - C
Very hit or miss for Healthcare. Be willing to drive a longer distance to get better care. I have found all the internet reviews for doctors to be accurate. Go with quality is my best advice, even if it costs more. Younger doctors have been much better than older doctors, who are pretty much grumpy *******s. When you get a good doctor, hang on to them.

Healthcare is some of the best in the country thanks to UAB, but one MAJOR issue was the closing down of Cooper Green, the city's only public hospital. But I won't get into that, I'm sure it's a hot button political issue and I don't want to go down that road, so please everyone...........spare your thoughts, I'm not here to get into that debate with you.

8. Politics - B
No one gives a rats behind what your political leanings are. You might have to debate a belief once in a while, but I've found folks in Birmingham/Central Alabama to be accepting of all political beliefs. People respect those who think a certain way than those who don't think at all. It's not nearly as conservative as its reputation. I find myself laughing at the political ads here, because each politician is trying to show how conservative they are. Outside of this area and the major metros? Probably not a good idea to talk about politics

This is where I seriously disagree with you. In my experience, people do take a confrontational attitude towards people who aren't conservative, Bible thumping Christians. Jews in Birmingham may be an exception, they don't seem to have too many problems, but I've known several Muslims in the city who say that they find Birmingham and Alabama in general to be a very intolerant place, and as a non-religious person myself I find the Bible Belt in Birmingham to be way too tight. I've literally been forced into religious arguments with people while hanging out in bars on Southside. Not once, not twice, but several times.

I tried my best to avoid these conversations with people, telling them politely, "I'm not religious, and I'm not interested in having a religious conversation with you. Let's talk about something else." And they insist on preaching to me anyway. At work it was even worse. Now again, I've spent most of my adult life up north, not in Birmingham. I left when I was 23...........but still. This was my experience, and it was enough to make me feel that the South was not for me. I do not believe that a family who is Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or (gasp!) agnostic or atheist will feel entirely comfortable and fully accepted as equal members of the community in Birmingham. I know I didn't, and I tried my best to be nice and respect others' opinions.

Don't even get me started on politics - there's a sharp black/white divide in politics in Alabama (especially in Birmingham, I actually think Birmingham might be worse than rural Alabama). The overwhelming majority of whites in Alabama vote Republican, the overwhelming majority of blacks vote Democrat. Of course it's not like that everywhere. Yes, blacks tend to vote Democrat no matter where you go, but whites are usually ideologically diverse. Not so in Alabama. There's pockets of Birmingham and Huntsville where you can find moderate or even liberal white people, but they are definitely the exception and not the norm. And no, people do not tend to be polite about it.

[NoleFanHSV]

As a transplant myself...the biggest issue I have is that county politics have to be voted on by the whole state because of the Alabama Constitution. I find it ludicrous.

[Nlambert]

White Wine, you did an excellent job with your post. I can easily agree with you there.

[harry chickpea]

A few comments - and yes, I have lived other places, Vermont, Brooklyn, upstate NY, Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, etc..

Work ethic - I've hired 16 to 30 Y.O.s in a number of these places, and some older managers as well. Some of the hardest workers I hired were from the Birmingham area. There were some slackers, but the percentage of slackers often follows the hiring policies of the company more than the area - exception being south Florida which is amazingly bad.

I-65 - from a couple exits south of Hoover to the I-59/20 interchange is some of the most dangerous interstate I've traveled. The big rigs on the hills, the tight exits, poorly loaded and maintained cars and speeders are a recipe for disaster. I was much more comfortable driving I-95 in south Florida.

Rentals - a lot depends on the agency and the immediate management. When I used Metcalf to rent my property and an older man was the one who went around inspecting, everything was top notch. He got in a car accident and died, and the service went to pot. (This was years ago, don't know how they are now.)

Religion - B'ham is less obvious than the rest of the state, but it is there. The church schools can be intense.

[raj kapoor]

I am stunned by the rant that took place on this thread. It is hard to understand that the 'magus' believes that if you live in one place that you cannot acquire LIFE EXPERIENCE that endows you with many intellectual skills to make judgments or even see the fail in someone else's judgment. None of these people ever said that they had no live experience. Which can entail far more than merely living in another geographic location (not the moon most likely).

The OP stated this was a new experience in the south for him. This in itself suggest just what the 'magus' said so emphatically. How could he come to BHM and make the assumption that all of the things he experienced were particular to Alabama. The southeast is fairly common in its variety of actions and colloquialisms. And yet, just living on one side of town or another can make all the difference in the world. You my friend should not have moved to Calera. I believe you would have been better suited to a more cosmopolitan part of town. ( a heavy stress on 'MORE')


My first impression of the OP is that he is polite and sensitive and assumes that we are too sensitive. Actually, if I recall most people agreed with him on some or most points.
I certainly do about driving and a lack of good employment motivation. I do take exception about real estate activities. Especially since he was working in a limited budget area. Most people in the business hate to fool with something low on their scale. And no, they are not correct, they are horrible for approaching serving people this way.

Since there are fifty states and one hundred cities the size of BHM or larger, I would say that the OP, although well meaning, is really not equipped to make such a sweeping assessment. I am sure that you did not know where all those lousy drivers were from. Surely you have an Alabama tag on your auto. Well, you see, how can you know. There is just not solid evidence that you have uncovered an unknown truth in your experience so far.

Good wishes to the OP. Your thread was refreshing to read. You can be pragmatic and nice at the same time. I have a hunch that spells success for you.

(no its not my rant that stuns me) LOL

[Alabama Transplant]

I appreciate everyone's response to my original post. I did make a few errors in the original post, and for that I apologize. This can be isolated to the following points:

1. I should have titled the post to be specific to Birmingham. As many have pointed out, I do not have the experience with the remainder of the state to make such a sweeping generalization about it.
2. Some of the points were vague and likely not indicative of the entire region.
3. Everything was solely based on my own experiences. There were some points I should have looked at more in-depth and not just from my own perspective.

I'd like to clear up a few things.

1. My work
I am what is called a "turnaround specialist". Essentially, I come into your business after the management team has been terminated and identify what the issues are. My final order of business is to fix them. I apologize if this sounds egotistical, but I have not failed yet in this capacity. I have successfully turned around 6 of my companies businesses that were in a similar bind to what is going on here. I work with 3 other managers in this turnaround capacity who are imported to address the business.

I have tremendous concerns about this business here. I am really worried that the conclusion to this "adventure" is a shuttered business and 150 employees laid off. This is about 50% the doing of my company, who forecasted an unrealistic amount of revenue generation for this area. The other 50% is the doing of the employees and previous management team. As I stated in the original post, basic functions of the job were not being completed. I feel I am a very fair boss and all I ask for is honesty. I don't want people working 70 hours a week, I am fine with 40. I love people who go above and beyond, but I am satisfied with the basic functions of the job being met. It was not happening here.

The part that saddens me is I have had to terminate a lot of people for lying or not doing the absolute basic functions of their job. And I can't deny that it is the folks who were born/raised out here. The secondary issue that made me draw the conclusion on work ethic is that the locals I interviewed were not the quality of candidate I was looking for. All of my sales jobs I have available require someone to work 5-6 Saturdays a year with a day off during the week to compensate. 5 out of the 12 locals I interviewed told me that would not be acceptable. 5 of the other 7 candidates gave very poor interviews. I pride myself on hiring locally and I could only find 1 hire amongst the local pool. I originally had 2, but one (shockingly) failed a drug test. I hate that my company drug tests, but it is what it is. The other 3 hires I had to import from other cities for these good paying jobs.

With that said, I am not giving up on this city. I do not want to see this business fail as the ripple effect would be detrimental. I always look at my job as helping a city, not necessarily a company.

2. My residence
As a poster pointed out, I should have not moved to Calera. I was so unsuccessful in my housing search, I did have to settle on this. Once my lease is up, I'll be going somewhere a bit more suited to my needs. I can afford more, but I felt it would be nice to take advantage of the cost of living in Alabama and put some money away. After living in the money sucking pit that is Chicago, I really am enjoying not having to pay an arm and a leg for everything.

3. My commute
I have lived in Chicago, San Francisco, LA and New York. Areas that are notorious for the commute. I do feel that my commute now is second worst to LA. As I said in the original post, it's limited to 5% of the drivers, but they make this commute hell. My insurance rates do reflect this, as I am paying the same amount as I did in Chicago (albeit with 10 more miles added per trip). I do think this is related to some people who shouldn't be driving are driving. The second issue that I didn't mention originally is that the Interstate is such a critical commuting platform for this area, so there is much more of a collection of drivers at any given time. But every day, I feel I learn how to work around it better and predict the actions of these bad drivers. If anything, they are getting easier to spot and strategically plan around. Birmingham could really benefit from making an concerted effort to beef up its public transportation, but the cost associated with that may not make it a feasible option.

4. The people
One point that was questioned is the blaming of everyone else for their problems. I have to rely on my own experiences on this one. Friends, colleagues, and acquaintances out here have given this impression to me. As someone mentioned, there is a very pessimistic outlook about this city, and I think that may be a tad overblown. Perhaps it is because they are so free to give out this information about blaming. But I do want to make clear that I absolutely have fallen in love with people out here. They are VASTLY superior to most other cities. I should have made that more clear. I simply adore the people who live in Birmingham on a personal level. Having friends all over the country, I simply won't allow them to badmouth Alabama unless they are ready to be debated on it. The reputation of this state is disappointing. It does not deserve to be a punchline. I think people who have never been here are the ignorant ones, since they like to throw around that assumption about Alabama.

All told, I do enjoy it here. I like the slower pace and I am so happy when I get some free time to explore this region. I wish I could buy a house here and solve my real estate woes, but the nature of my job just wouldn't allow it. I am rooting for this city to become stronger and I hope to contribute my very small part to making this the next great city. We're in it together, B'Ham

[NoleFanHSV]

I think people are willing to work hard in Alabama is long as the benefits and pay is inline.

Most don't want to work weekends due to family or religious reasons, and I wouldn't call that a knock on hard work.

[harry chickpea]

meh. Troubleshooter, turnaround specialist, roving manager all amount to much the same. You walk in, do an inventory and lock the books and change safe combo and keys, fire the top, and look for corrupt tendrils reaching through the staff while it is still in shock. If a situation has been allowed to fester, it can end up as a "staunch the bleed until the lease runs out." Been there a few times.

Reputation is a major factor. The potential applicants commonly know people who are or were employed and have expectations based on the experiences of those people. Customers also are tuned into word of mouth. It is possible that the company itself has a bad reputation, which will affect the makeup of the pool of applicants.

I was still a young manager when I resolved my discomfort at terminating for cause. I set the standards, if those weren't met it wasn't a good fit for the employee or the business. It ended up better all around to make the cut quickly and neatly. I only had one case where the staff didn't appreciate the culling of deadwood. That case was one where the entire staff was lazy, on the take, and vindictive.

[Keeper]

Discussing other members is not allowed. discuss the topic only. You are entitled to your opinion however do not come to this forum just to bash other members

[Blazin65]

I couldn't read everything in this post because it is rather lenthy. But the first thing that pops into my mind is that 9 months is hardly enough time to have a feel for all the things you are talking about. Maybe traffic is something you have a feel for, but all the other stuff, I don't really think so.

And by the way I also previously had a job much like yours. So just the nature of your work makes you highly analytical. As someone who is also analytical, and older, I would say you need to re-evaluate in about 2-3 years.

Cheers!