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Old 11-13-2017, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Jack-town, Sip by way of TN, AL and FL
1,699 posts, read 1,942,145 times
Reputation: 3012

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Not sure I understand the antipathy.
Huntsville has some great things going on that are pretty much the opposite of Birmingham. I used to live there, and it's easy to get caught up in that, and want to be a part of it. Very bright outlook on the future there.

Where they go wrong is thinking they compete with Birmingham (as a metro area on the whole). They aren't on that level yet. If you really want to mess with a Huntsvillian tell them that.

 
Old 11-13-2017, 06:12 PM
 
10,486 posts, read 6,920,120 times
Reputation: 32232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line View Post
It's all economy, man. We can talk about race/government fragmentation/poor leadership until we are blue in the face, but the economy is what put Birmingham in the position it is in currently. MinivanDriver detailed it well above. I honestly think Atlanta was able to grow so much probably because it was a transportation hub. Bottom line. Birmingham's growth is going to be limited by that. Just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong. Those things above can help steer the ship, but they aren't the engine.

At this point, Birmingham is in that 'too big to fail' category, and is established, so there is potential to do some things. It seems to me now that things like this Amazon deal, and all the other competition for companies based on tax rebates, are driving the economy. Who knows what the future holds, and what cities will benefit. I do know this....if you're trying to get into the current 'hot thing' or whatever, like tech, you're probably late to the party. Cities like Seattle, Denver and Austin were in on this stuff long before it was popular.

It's like trying to predict the weather.
Well, I understand your point.

As far as the economy is concerned, in terms of unemployment, household income growth, and a bunch of other metrics, Birmingham has a healthy economy. What it lacks is the rate of growth that Atlanta and Charlotte and a lot of its counterparts enjoy.

But I think Birmingham has been addressing those things. Birmingham is actually gaining interest as a distribution hub, it has had some recent economic recruitment successes, and the industries already here are going through an expansion. So if you're trying to paint Birmingham as being in some kind of torpor, I don't think that description fits at all. Remember that Birmingham was the country's third-largest banking hub prior to 2008 and Dodd-Frank, both of which turned out to be an absolute nightmare for the financial industry. It was tantamount to the steel mills shutting down in 1980. AND we had the JeffCo bankruptcy fiasco in 2011 as well. Don't forget that. So the region basically took two killshots in a three-year period and managed to emerge on the other side in okay shape.

To me, what has to be addressed is the following:

1) Improvement of civic life. That has been going on in rather dramatic fashion over the past ten years. You can talk about cost of living all you want, but if you're not a quality place for the creative class to live, you won't enjoy growth. So the investment lifestyle improvements over the past decade will prove a huge boost for the city moving forward.
2) Cooperation between civic governments within the metro area. There's already a good deal more of that than in years past.
3) Economic development efforts. Now that the JeffCo bankruptcy is safely behind us, it's becoming easier to recruit.
4) The freaking State of Alabama government. It's miserable. It's backward. And it's organized so that the rural counties dictate so much of our economic fate. The only way we're going to get around that in the near future is to invite the entirety of the state legislature on a free trip to Las Vegas and then monkey with the plane's hydraulics so that the entire state leadership goes pinwheeling off the runway in a flaming ball of metal and jet fuel. THEN we could get some things done.

I'm only joking, just in case a law enforcement officer is reading that last item.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; 11-13-2017 at 07:02 PM..
 
Old 11-13-2017, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Jack-town, Sip by way of TN, AL and FL
1,699 posts, read 1,942,145 times
Reputation: 3012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
4) The freaking State of Alabama government. It's miserable. It's backward. And it's organized so that the rural counties dictate so much of our economic fate.
I don't see how they hold that much power. I think they are just another entity in which to point blame, in the midst of a ton of frustration. I don't see Huntsville complaining about them.

At the end of the day, my opinion is that this is just another red/blue debate.
 
Old 11-13-2017, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,776,034 times
Reputation: 6318
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Lots of factors that have hamstrung Birmingham in the past, some of which still do today.

1) The race thing. Not only did it mar our national image for decades, but it also led to the fracturing of our metro population into dozens of municipalities, all of which have operated in a posture of mutual suspicion and turf defense. Over the past few years, however, some signs have emerged that seem to be hopeful. First, the downtown area is seeing a surge of residents as old buildings are renovated and new multifamily are created. I think the old mossbacks are dying off, and hope the generation that follows seeing the wisdom of some kind of unified metropolitan approach. Not necessarily in government, for school systems are sacred cows, but in other fundamental ways. It's way better than it was before, but still needs improvement. There was a time when people in the outer suburbs spoke of Birmingham as if it were another planet.

2) The Alabama thing. Unfortunately, Birmingham is part of Alabama. Don't get me wrong. Love my state. But the power in this state resides in the rural counties, which zealously defend their prerogatives to weigh in on what happens in Birmingham. Home Rule simply cannot be forced through the legislature, which means every new tax, every new position, and every new bond issue that is enacted anywhere has to be voted on by every Alabama citizen as a constitutional amendment. It is absolutely ridiculous. Yet Birmingham's metro GDP is larger than Huntsville, Mobile, and Montgomery combined, with maybe a Gadsden or Tuscaloosa tossed in for good measure.

If you need a working example, Birmingham was the last major Alabama city to have its Interstate system completed by a span of decades. I've always joked that the best thing that could happen to Birmingham is if it seceded Alabama along with Huntsville and formed a new state. Heck. You could even put the capital in Cullman just to have it in a central location.

3) The US Steel thing. Birmingham was essentially a company town from its origins to the early 80s when USS shut down their plant. That meant that USS meddled continuously in the politics of Birmingham to keep the local population divided, and the city firmly committed to old-school industries. This is pretty well documented. The other thing? USS actually kept their Birmingham plants from outperforming their Pittsburg plants by slapping a tariff on any product delivered more than 300 miles from the city, while Pittsburg plants had no such restriction--one of the all-time business headscratchers. Even today, USS holds sway over thousands of acres and their subsequent development.

4) The Civic Government thing. People don't realize this, but Birmingham was about the same size as Atlanta in 1930, but was growing far more rapidly. The Depression hit, which had catastrophic consequences for Birmingham's economic growth. At one point during the Great Depression, only 3,200 people in the city had full-time employment. It says a great deal that not a single major building was erected in downtown Birmingham between 1930 and 1970. The city recovered and grew in the 1940s, but then the horrid civic government took over.

Aside from the racism of the 50s, the city leaders were myopic, to put it charitably. Not only did they invest full-tilt in segregation politics, but they dismantled what had been an excellent transit system and did not anticipate the effects of suburbanization. Whether or not Birmingham had a shot at the Delta Airlines hub remains a hotly debated topic, but it does seem to signify the short-sighted civic approach to economic development.

From 1950 to 1980, the civic leadership of the metro area was comprised chiefly of boobs. The downtown area, still a viable retail center until the mid-70s, was wrecked by ill-conceived redevelopment efforts. I am personally amazed that UAB managed to take root and thrive during this time period. Otherwise, I think we would today be the South's answer to Flint, Michigan.

So what has happened since then? To me, the closing of USS forced the metro area to change the economy. UAB was instrumental in terms of biomedical. Several banks (Regions, SouthTrust, Compass, and AmSouth) grew exponentially into superregionals. Other industries have arisen, allowing the city to have a more diverse economic base. The pollution issue was addressed. And the interstates were finally completed.

The city took another hit in the Great Recession of 2008, chiefly because so much of the regional economy ran off banking. When two of the four superregionals went on the auction block, along with some smaller players, that can't help but send the city for a loop. But the effects were not nearly as severe as the Great Depression because there was a much broader economy.

5) The Conservative thing. I encounter this in my own biz. The investment dollars in Birmingham have long been centered on the sure things of banking, real estate, and insurance. For years, it was next to impossible to see any investment dollars go to tech or anything else for that matter. Fortunately, that seems to be changing quickly as, once again, the Old Guard goes to the Country Club In The Sky.


Okay. Probably more than you asked for, but it's a complex question. Today, I'm much more optimistic than I was ten years ago. The economy continues to diversify. There is far to do with an explosion of the restaurant scene that garners national attention. Income growth per household compares very favorably with the rest of the country. The downtown is undergoing a renaissance that is nothing short of miraculous. And there's a growing awareness that the economic fates of Birmingham, Hoover, Hueytown, Leeds, and all the other various suburbs are interwoven.

In other words, it's a city that has dragged itself out of the crater, dusted itself off, and seems to be in the process of turning itself into a great place to live. It's not Atlanta or Charlotte to be sure but, then again, we have had far deal more to overcome both in terms of economic disadvantage and good old-fashioned shooting ourselves in the foot.
As a graduate of Samford (Georgia native, currently in Texas) I must say I appreciate this concise history. Excellently written and lines up with much of what I have gleaned from natives during my years there and since. Birmingham has such potential, but as one from the Atlanta area, was always wondering why it lagged.

Still love the city and the people. Will always fell like a second home as the college years were my first years away from home and felt like I "discovered" Birmingham. In actuality it is the place where I discovered myself.
 
Old 11-13-2017, 07:45 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 10,373,633 times
Reputation: 4186
MSALLine = "I don't see Huntsville complaining..."

Well, we've complained about funding roads for everywhere but here, to the point that former Governor Bentley appointed someone from north Alabama to head ALDOnT.

I like parts of Birmingham, but your stupid leftist politics are why WE can't have home rule.
 
Old 11-13-2017, 09:06 PM
 
10,486 posts, read 6,920,120 times
Reputation: 32232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
MSALLine = "I don't see Huntsville complaining..."

Well, we've complained about funding roads for everywhere but here, to the point that former Governor Bentley appointed someone from north Alabama to head ALDOnT.

I like parts of Birmingham, but your stupid leftist politics are why WE can't have home rule.
That's strange. If our politics are leftist, not that I particularly agree with your statement, what business is it of yours?
 
Old 11-13-2017, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
2,580 posts, read 2,462,989 times
Reputation: 1614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
MSALLine = "I don't see Huntsville complaining..."

Well, we've complained about funding roads for everywhere but here, to the point that former Governor Bentley appointed someone from north Alabama to head ALDOnT.

I like parts of Birmingham, but your stupid leftist politics are why WE can't have home rule.
Or maybe the Alabama Legislature is full of idiots whom want to horde the basic power of most counties there in Montgomery instead of in the local jurisdictions like most states. Home rule is even available to most counties in Mississippi.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:07 PM
 
752 posts, read 1,089,233 times
Reputation: 1245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
MSALLine = "I don't see Huntsville complaining..."

Well, we've complained about funding roads for everywhere but here, to the point that former Governor Bentley appointed someone from north Alabama to head ALDOnT.

I like parts of Birmingham, but your stupid leftist politics are why WE can't have home rule.


The reason that there isn't home rule in the state of Alabama and that more power is vested in Montgomery goes back to the aftermath of the Civil War. Specifically, there were large areas in which the former slaves were the majority of the population of their respective counties and the wealthy white land owners were fearful that the population in their counties would vote for high property taxes on their land as a way of retribution for all of the years of slavery. This would be a reasonable fear, given human nature, people want to get payback for injustices.


Instead, power was vested in Montgomery where the legislature was coming from the overall state population which was majority white and would have the final say about tax increases of any kind. Thus, the Alabama Constitution is thousands of pages long as a result of the state legislature approving statewide referendums for local tax initiatives.


Most people don't realize this but before the Civil War,the state governments of the southern slave states were financed by taxes on slaves. After the War, state governments faced a challenge of how they would be financed - the plantation owners were obviously not able to pay those taxes (they were struggling just to hold on to their farms) and they didn't want to pay high property taxes, so, instead, governments, both local and state, were financed by sales taxes with some income coming from low property taxes.


Ironically, the dynamics at play in the aftermath of the Civil War are still somewhat at play in counties of the Black Belt (like Dallas County (Selma), Lowndes County and Wilcox County) where the white landowners who have large farms are a small percentage of the population and are probably fearful that they could be subject to high property taxes to finance the local government services (school, police, fire protection), yet this won't happen because of the state constitution which prohibits this.


Back to Birmingham, a similar dynamic is in play, too, where several years ago, the idea was discussed where the City of Birmingham, a city which is over 70% black, wanted to institute a city income tax on all salaries earned in the City of Birmingham. Many businesses in Birmingham protested and it never went anywhere because of the existing State Constitution.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 01:59 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 10,373,633 times
Reputation: 4186
David - "aftermath of the Civil War"? The State Constitution was adopted in 1901... I guess one could say aftermath, but I usually think of a more contemporary period.

D = "Birmingham... wanted to institute a city income tax on all salaries earned in the City of Birmingham. Many businesses in Birmingham protested and it never went anywhere because of the existing State Constitution."

Wrong.

City of Birmingham Income Tax Rate
 
Old 11-14-2017, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Jack-town, Sip by way of TN, AL and FL
1,699 posts, read 1,942,145 times
Reputation: 3012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
David - "aftermath of the Civil War"? The State Constitution was adopted in 1901... I guess one could say aftermath, but I usually think of a more contemporary period.

D = "Birmingham... wanted to institute a city income tax on all salaries earned in the City of Birmingham. Many businesses in Birmingham protested and it never went anywhere because of the existing State Constitution."

Wrong.

City of Birmingham Income Tax Rate
David1502 just got pwn3d

Serves you right for posting that liberal babble. Who is supposed to govern the state if not the dang elected state officials???
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