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I had no idea Birmingham didn't exist before the civil war, that's actually super interesting. I guess part of why I've always associated it with the old south is that it is dense and (in modern times at least) provincial. Although they are all different I count it in sort of a similar boat as Savannah, Charleston, Richmond and although it is in a different size NOLA. This would be opposed to "Sunbelt cities"
Birmingham got a very bad look with civil rights, it's the only history about the city that I ever learned, which makes more sense now that I know it is a younger city.
It seems that "Old South" can refer to the historic colonial Southern cities like Charleston, New Orleans, Savannah, Richmond, etc. or the cities of the Deep South that seemed to hold onto "old attitudes" the longest, especially regarding civil rights, like Birmingham, Montgomery, Jackson, etc. The ironic thing here is that Birmingham was actually a poster child of the "New South" as originally envisioned in the late 19th century.
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
It seems that "Old South" can refer to the historic colonial Southern cities like Charleston, New Orleans, Savannah, Richmond, etc. or the cities of the Deep South that seemed to hold onto "old attitudes" the longest, especially regarding civil rights, like Birmingham, Montgomery, Jackson, etc. The ironic thing here is that Birmingham was actually a poster child of the "New South" as originally envisioned in the late 19th century.
Ironically, Birmingham didn't per say hold on to "old attitudes" rather being the only island of social progression and modernity surrounded by (until recent about the early 2010s) mostly apprehensive suburban areas and socially conservative/regressive. Birmingham's "Old South" mantra is more a misnomer due to those aforementioned areas refusal to cooperate with Birmingham in its progress is also a major factor than the city itself being tied to the notion. It's actually remarkable and miraculous that Birmingham was able to thrust towards 1+ million by the early 2000s in its region and over the several decades attract major corporations and financial institutions due to the way the surrounding region and state operated during that time. Furthermore, Birmingham proper has generally been "New South" while its surrounding metro area. Memphis has a similar aura surrounding it that is very prevalent.
Montgomery, Jackson, Columbus, Macon, Augusta, Little Rock, etc. are more of the clear designation of the actual cities (and their government representation) with the "Old South" attitudes that still prevail today.
The way the city of Birmingham operated the late 1990s until the most recent mayoral administration has been clearly in-cooperative toward most surrounding areas because (like now in Metro Atlanta with Atlanta and its surrounding areas) a constant battle of pushing on its own on major initiatives. Birmingham is still somewhat doing this today, but the current mayoral administration has shown more willingness than previous administrations on economic development and other initiatives of regional impact.
Old South is essentially areas of old southern money, that were beacons of economic prosperity in the old days, I'd say before 1950 or so, and have not grown much since then. You can blame the lack of growth on many things, from the 'fathers' keeping towns down, to race relations, to simply the economy. Who knows.
Either way, it was obvious that Birmingham hit a lull, and is just now starting to re-emerge. But to me, it's only re-emerging due to its status in the state of Alabama, being the financial center. Like I have stated in other threads, B'ham still does not have that 'IT' factor that allows it to be a force outside of the state.
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line
Old South is essentially areas of old southern money, that were beacons of economic prosperity in the old days, I'd say before 1950 or so, and have not grown much since then. You can blame the lack of growth on many things, from the 'fathers' keeping towns down, to race relations, to simply the economy. Who knows.
Either way, it was obvious that Birmingham hit a lull, and is just now starting to re-emerge. But to me, it's only re-emerging due to its status in the state of Alabama, being the financial center. Like I have stated in other threads, B'ham still does not have that 'IT' factor that allows it to be a force outside of the state.
It's not a dig though, that is hard to do.
I agree with most of what you said but that "IT" factor doesn't seem to exist outside of certain less than cities in the South (Dallas, Houston, Washington DC, Miami, and Orlando) outside of the region. I didn't include Atlanta because I am here and trust me it is 'forced' and borderline contrived then its "IT" factor would organically develop.
Ironically, Birmingham didn't per say hold on to "old attitudes" rather being the only island of social progression and modernity surrounded by (until recent about the early 2010s) mostly apprehensive suburban areas and socially conservative/regressive. Birmingham's "Old South" mantra is more a misnomer due to those aforementioned areas refusal to cooperate with Birmingham in its progress is also a major factor than the city itself being tied to the notion. It's actually remarkable and miraculous that Birmingham was able to thrust towards 1+ million by the early 2000s in its region and over the several decades attract major corporations and financial institutions due to the way the surrounding region and state operated during that time. Furthermore, Birmingham proper has generally been "New South" while its surrounding metro area. Memphis has a similar aura surrounding it that is very prevalent.
Montgomery, Jackson, Columbus, Macon, Augusta, Little Rock, etc. are more of the clear designation of the actual cities (and their government representation) with the "Old South" attitudes that still prevail today.
The way city of Birmingham operated the late 1990s until the current administration has been clearly in-cooperative toward most surrounding areas because (like now in Metro Atlanta with Atlanta and its surrounding areas) a constant battle of pushing on its own on major initiatives. Birmingham is still somewhat doing this today, but the current mayoral administration has shown more willingness than previous administrations on economic development and other initiatives of regional impact.
Population growth has nothing to do with whether a southern city is perceived as "Old South" (within the South and especially outside the South). I don't see population growth as a function of "miraculous" anything. That's totally and utterly hyperbolic. Futhermore, "Birmingham PROPER" can't be intelligently separated in re culture and outside perception of the MSA. That suggestion that the City of Birmingham's ethos and history is somehow apart from surrounding suburbs begs the question, and smacks of tortured reasoning. Businesses and outsiders of the region make no such distinction because the area is understanably fairly monolithic in its shared history, customs, attitude, education and social structure.
To an outsider (business or individual), it's totally irrelevant whether a "native" is a longtime "resident" of West End, East Lake, "Smithfield", Centerpoint, or say, Mountain Brook, Vestavia Hills or north Shelby County.
Old South is essentially areas of old southern money, that were beacons of economic prosperity in the old days, I'd say before 1950 or so, and have not grown much since then. You can blame the lack of growth on many things, from the 'fathers' keeping towns down, to race relations, to simply the economy. Who knows.
Either way, it was obvious that Birmingham hit a lull, and is just now starting to re-emerge. But to me, it's only re-emerging due to its status in the state of Alabama, being the financial center. Like I have stated in other threads, B'ham still does not have that 'IT' factor that allows it to be a force outside of the state.
It's not a dig though, that is hard to do.
Agreed. Birmingham is in fact "starting to re-emerge". The key fact however is that the city is still behind, and significantly behind efforts and stature of many other cities - within the "South" and outside the "South" (whether the Old or New South). If a city is constantly playing catch-up, it remains in a loss position. Other cities aren't exactly sitting still or resting on their laurels. In some cases the forward movement of others cities such as Nashville has outpaced every other city in the region. Observers can't ignore can't disregard or dismiss this kind of meaningful development.
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -parallon-
Population growth has nothing to do with whether a southern city is perceived as "Old South" (within the South and especially outside the South). I don't see population growth as a function of "miraculous" anything. That's totally and utterly hyperbolic. Futhermore, "Birmingham PROPER" can't be intelligently separated in re culture and outside perception of the MSA. That suggestion that the City of Birmingham's ethos and history is somehow apart from surrounding suburbs begs the question, and smacks of tortured reasoning. Businesses and outsiders of the region make no such distinction because the area is understanably fairly monolithic in its shared history, customs, attitude, education and social structure.
To an outsider (business or individual), it's totally irrelevant whether a "native" is a longtime "resident" of West End, East Lake, "Smithfield", Centerpoint, or say, Mountain Brook, Vestavia Hills or north Shelby County.
Huh? Who are you again? Nvm, I don't care. I know who this is... *HITS IGNORE*
I agree with most of what you said but that "IT" factor doesn't seem to exist outside of certain less than cities in the South (Dallas, Houston, Washington DC, Miami, and Orlando) outside of the region. I didn't include Atlanta because I am here and trust me it is 'forced' and borderline contrived then its "IT" factor would organically develop.
Well, it's the IT factor that caused those cities to grow like crazy, am I right?
Specifically speaking of Atlanta, many say it was very much like Birmingham, ie a transportation hub for the south. In all actuality, a better one, thus the airport grew like crazy, leading to Delta and other things. That is Atlanta's IT - transportation and logistics. Over time, things like Coke/Home Depot/Delta can attach itself to the identity of a city, but overall it was the favorable meeting of many transportation corridors that thrust Atlanta into the spotlight. It still carries all the other attributes of Birmingham too, like being the financial center of its own state (and capitol in this instance).
Does Miami's identity really need explanation? DC?
Dallas is the hub of transportation and oil and cattle and Texas in general. Conglomeration of everything.
Houston is big oil.
Orlando is tricky, I guess it is Disney. Not sure what else of substance is there, the big port is in Tampa. I don't think it belongs in a discussion with the aforementioned metro areas.
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
2,580 posts, read 2,485,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line
Well, it's the IT factor that caused those cities to grow like crazy, am I right?
Specifically speaking of Atlanta, many say it was very much like Birmingham, ie a transportation hub for the south. In all actuality, a better one, thus the airport grew like crazy, leading to Delta and other things. That is Atlanta's IT - transportation and logistics. Over time, things like Coke/Home Depot/Delta can attach itself to the identity of a city, but overall it was the favorable meeting of many transportation corridors that thrust Atlanta into the spotlight. It still carries all the other attributes of Birmingham too, like being the financial center of its own state (and capitol in this instance).
Does Miami's identity really need explanation? DC?
Dallas is the hub of transportation and oil and cattle and Texas in general. Conglomeration of everything.
Houston is big oil.
Orlando is tricky, I guess it is Disney. Not sure what else of substance is there, the big port is in Tampa. I don't think it belongs in a discussion with the aforementioned metro areas.
Correct, I agree with you on all accounts except Orlando. Orlando happens to be in this league because of its explosive growth because of the major tourist attraction especially Walt Disney World.
DC, was at first the hub of federal government, then it because a black culture and business hub, and now its evolved into a major business hub for IT, contractors, and various parts of mass media. It has not lost the previously aforementioned aspects but it has grown because of these.
Atlanta is just case of hyper-desperation of economic development which has paid off in some ways but cost it severely in its overall quality of life of most residents. It is a hub of black culture and business like DC. Unlike the other cities mentioned with the "IT" factor, Atlanta has astronomical levels for regional poverty for a metro its size. Its rate of abject poverty for any top 10 metro (it actually rivals poverty rates only seen in large cities in developing world nations) which equates to lower quality of life for the average resident, which can in the long run hurt the "IT" factor.
Birmingham should just continue to hone its developing "IT" factor around its logistics, food/cultural tourism, and growing technology startup sector.
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