Why is Birmingham still considered an "Old South" city? (Selma: live, manufacturing)

[Mississippi Alabama Line]

Originally Posted by -parallon-

If you don't think (rationally) that Birmingham, ALABAMA is NOT CONSIDERED "Old South" outside the region, you're living in a box, or have not actually lived anywhere else than Birmingham your entire life. The perception of Birmingham from those people and businesses in 49 other states is that it IS the poster child for The Old South. An argument could be made whether those "perceptions" are accurate, but friends, ahhhh...this perception is indeed reality, like it or not.


Succinctly, it doesn't matter a hoot when Birmingham AL was founded....whether before or after the Civil War! that's laughable to any outsider living in Chicago, NYC, Tucson, Seattle, LA or a business like Amazon based on the west coast of America. If you don't think residents of Maine, Massachusetts, CT, New Hampshire, RI, etc consider Birmingham ALABAMA as OLD SOUTH, you're pretty misinformed or living in LA-LA-LAND. These people and businesses do not see or even acknowledge the nuances of Old/New "South" between cities such as Richmond, Charleston, NOLA, Macon, or a Jacksonville.


Sorry folks, Birmingham, Alabama's image outside the South is very much Old South. It's always been cast in that light and probably will continue to be so during the remainder of most of your own lives (of posters here)....and maybe for generations to come....maybe....but most of you won't be living when this perception changes by hundreds of thousands of other US citizens and businesses well outside the State of Alabama , and the region.


Keep marching forward !

While all this is true, it doesn't make those people less ignorant.

Either way, can we get away from this race/redneck nonsense as far as what other people think? It doesn't matter. Old South = Old Money, made back during the the South's prosperous days. Those days differ from each place to the next.

[-parallon-]

It certainly DOES matter what "other people think", it matters a great deal! It mattered what "others" thought about Atlanta during the 1960s and 1970s, it "mattered" to Delta, Coca Cola, SunTrust and others. It "matters" what Amazon "thinks" about Boston, Atlanta, Miami, et al.


Similarly, it "mattered" what the NFL thought about having a pro team moving and living in Nashville.


It "mattered" what the MLS thought about Seattle and Portland in having pro soccer teams there. And more recently it "mattered" what MLS "thought" about Miami in just awarding a MLS expansion soccer team there the other day.


It "mattered" what a HUGE foreign car company, MAZDA "thought" about Huntsville-Madison in locating and building a multi million dollar facility there.


In short, thinking it "doesn't matter" what other people outside of Birmingham "think" is pretty wrong-headed. Additionally, I don't recall any reference to "this race/redneck nonsense". People and businesses on the "outside" don't attempt to whitewash histories. You own your own histories, whether in Birmingham or Hong Kong.


No one that I know outside of the region equates "Old SOUTH" with "Old MONEY". That's not what is conjured in their minds, my friend- far from it.


Keep moving forward!

[Reactionary]

It still doesn't make those people less ignorant (those who consider Birmingham to be "Old South").

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line

Exactly how is Birmingham ahead of any other peer cities in this?

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http://www.uab.edu/news/research/ite...in-nih-funding

[Atlanta Scientist]

Originally Posted by jero23

Correct, I agree with you on all accounts except Orlando. Orlando happens to be in this league because of its explosive growth because of the major tourist attraction especially Walt Disney World.

DC, was at first the hub of federal government, then it because a black culture and business hub, and now its evolved into a major business hub for IT, contractors, and various parts of mass media. It has not lost the previously aforementioned aspects but it has grown because of these.

Atlanta is just case of hyper-desperation of economic development which has paid off in some ways but cost it severely in its overall quality of life of most residents. It is a hub of black culture and business like DC. Unlike the other cities mentioned with the "IT" factor, Atlanta has astronomical levels for regional poverty for a metro its size. Its rate of abject poverty for any top 10 metro (it actually rivals poverty rates only seen in large cities in developing world nations) which equates to lower quality of life for the average resident, which can in the long run hurt the "IT" factor.

Birmingham should just continue to hone its developing "IT" factor around its logistics, food/cultural tourism, and growing technology startup sector.

Atlanta has a lower metropolitan poverty rate than Houston, NYC,LA, and Miami according to a 2016 study done by the Census Bureau. Where did you get your data from?

[Atlanta Scientist]

Birmingham is making good strides despite the negative attention that Alabama gets. I don't see any mid to large cities in the south as "old south". I think of places like Charleston, New Orleans, Savannah, and even Mobile in that way.

[-parallon-]

Originally Posted by Columbia Scientist

Birmingham is making good strides despite the negative attention that Alabama gets. I don't see any mid to large cities in the south as "old south". I think of places like Charleston, New Orleans, Savannah, and even Mobile in that way.

With respect, you state you don't "see" any MID to LARGE cities as "Old South", but then you speciously assert that YOU DO see a city as large as NEW ORLEANS as "old south" ??? This makes no rational sense really. This is totally inconsistent.


Also you appear not to be OUTSIDE the region! it looks as though you live in Georgia, about 1.5 hours from Birmingham itself. What I asserted and claimed that most people and businesses that I know OUTSIDE of the State of AL and OUTSIDE the region, do in fact perceive Birmingham, Alabama as "Old South" indeed. Whether their perception is fair or completely accurate is another matter.


I assert that you would be very hard pressed to find a well-traveled resident or successful business in places such as Seattle, New York City, Chicago, or Boston et al that would actually believe any claim that Birmingham ALABAMA is not "Old South". Perception remains reality.

[Atlanta Scientist]

Originally Posted by -parallon-

With respect, you state you don't "see" any MID to LARGE cities as "Old South", but then you speciously assert that YOU DO see a city as large as NEW ORLEANS as "old south" ??? This makes no rational sense really. This is totally inconsistent.


Also you appear not to be OUTSIDE the region! it looks as though you live in Georgia, about 1.5 hours from Birmingham itself. What I asserted and claimed that most people and businesses that I know OUTSIDE of the State of AL and OUTSIDE the region, do in fact perceive Birmingham, Alabama as "Old South" indeed. Whether their perception is fair or completely accurate is another matter.


I assert that you would be very hard pressed to find a well-traveled resident or successful business in places such as Seattle, New York City, Chicago, or Boston et al that would actually believe any claim that Birmingham ALABAMA is not "Old South". Perception remains reality.

My apologies.

The mid to large cities comment was using the backwardness( prejudiced) definition of old south. I think one is more apt to encounter that old south in smaller cities and towns.

The specific cities I mentioned could be old south in terms of culture and architecture they have.

I should probably settle on a definition but it seems that old south has more than one connotation.

I've lived overseas and had many people from Europe and Asia tell me, a South Carolinian by birth, that South Carolina was not a part of the south. So I don't gave equal weight to every opinion I encounter.

[cherokee48]

Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth

Justin.. yeah, Old South is the southern stretch of the original British colonies. Area that would be considered (in modern context) as the SouthEast & Mid-Atlantic.. Virginia, Maryland, NC, etc.

Alabama is deep South, which was frontier to the Old South, and developed later & somewhat differently.
peace.

I agree with both posters on this. Part of the richness of Birmingham's history is that is a blend of different southern cultures or influences (Deep South, Upland South, Appalachian) which you will be hard pressed to find in any southern city. B'ham is the epitome of what it means to be southern. That being said it is technically and historically not an old south city based on the historical understanding which the previous posters laid out pretty clearly. This Old South thing is at best a misnomer and more likely very ill informed.

[cherokee48]

Originally Posted by -parallon-

If you don't think (rationally) that Birmingham, ALABAMA is NOT CONSIDERED "Old South" outside the region, you're living in a box, or have not actually lived anywhere else than Birmingham your entire life. The perception of Birmingham from those people and businesses in 49 other states is that it IS the poster child for The Old South. An argument could be made whether those "perceptions" are accurate, but friends, ahhhh...this perception is indeed reality, like it or not.



Succinctly, it doesn't matter a hoot when Birmingham AL was founded....whether before or after the Civil War! that's laughable to any outsider living in Chicago, NYC, Tucson, Seattle, LA or a business like Amazon based on the west coast of America. If you don't think residents of Maine, Massachusetts, CT, New Hampshire, RI, etc consider Birmingham ALABAMA as OLD SOUTH, you're pretty misinformed or living in LA-LA-LAND. These people and businesses do not see or even acknowledge the nuances of Old/New "South" between cities such as Richmond, Charleston, NOLA, Macon, or a Jacksonville.




Sorry folks, Birmingham, Alabama's image outside the South is very much Old South. It's always been cast in that light and probably will continue to be so during the remainder of most of your own lives (of posters here)....and maybe for generations to come....maybe....but most of you won't be living when this perception changes by hundreds of thousands of other US citizens and businesses well outside the State of Alabama , and the region.


Keep marching forward !

I've never heard of this being a perception of the city outside of this thread, I have however always heard of B'ham being perceived as a Deep South city and it seems to me that you have conflated the 2 concepts. It is a mistake that is kind of understandable being that the term Deep South carries so much weight when it comes to southern culture and southern-ness but ill informed and rarely heard nonetheless. If anything this is a reflection of how much people associate Deep South with being the foundation of the south (hence the Old South association) and that is simply inaccurate outside of the cultural influence.

This too is incorrect, the distinction of Old South (both technically and basically) has everything to do with when it was founded or in existence. As other posters have pointed out it is not historically possible for Birmingham to have been in the Old South as it did not exist at that time. In fact Birmingham is the quintessential New South city due to its age as a post Civil War city and it's industrial heritage as an iron city with more in common with it's Rust Belt cousins. I don't think that outsiders consider B'ham to be Old South at all rather most outsiders I've come into contact with overwhelmingly consider B'ham Deep South more than anything rather than Upland Southern or Appalachian which it is too . Most outsiders are pretty smart and come from states with solid school systems and were generally educated about history, geography and regional identity at some point in grade school.

Not to beat a dead horse but Deep South is very much the regional identity most closely associated with Birmingham in and outside of the South by far, and Old South is not even on the list as far as identity goes that will likely not change in our lifetimes or any time soon....or ever.