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There are lots of good points raised, and I appreciate the feedback. And I agree with boi2socal's point about the relative politeness in this forum compared with others (which in itself is a sign of emotional intelligence IMO). I think American culture in general has some strong anti-intellectual biases, perhaps in part because being intellectual is often, for better or for worse, associated with snootiness, privilege, wealth, and the sense of entitlement that often comes with it, and also in part because the popular media has a profound dumbing-down effect that promotes a certain disdain for intelligence (I'm sorry, but this is perfectly illustrated by Fox news and the like, which substitute platitudes, talking points, emotional outbursts, and "entertainment" for rational, critical thought, and analysis).
Personally, I don't mind talking about the latest camping or hiking trip, or which team won the big game over the weekend, but I confess to become easily bored if that's as deep as it gets. It has absolutely nothing to do with impressing people, and everything to do with connecting with people on a deeper level. I'm drawn to those with a sense of curiosity about the world, and who enjoy exploring possibilities outside of what is generally discussed in popular culture, so that's where I'm coming from. Engaging in small talk about the weather and such has never been my forte, unless it's an encounter with a stranger at a gas station or in the checkout line and such. It's nothing against any of those things; it's just a matter of personal preference, and it takes a whole range of personality types to make the world go 'round.
But it sounds like Boise is a large enough city to attract a fair number of people who also share those values, which is good to hear. Thanks again for all of the great feedback; it is appreciated.
The attitudes mentioned here are not singular to Boise. They are shared everywhere in Idaho.
The essential thing an outsider doesn't understand when moving here is we are few, living in a very large and wild state where everything is extreme, vast, and on a much larger natural scale than the small human scale of life in highly populated places elsewhere.
Idahoans are accustomed to being in this remoteness, this wildness, and all this big stuff, where the forces of nature all prevail, period. Standing in line chatting is a human refreshment after spending a day seeing no humanity at all in any direction. That kind of isolation is common here. No one is ever bumper to bumper, surrounded by suburbs, sameness and the press of humanity unless that's what they choose for themselves. Remoteness is the easiest thing to find here in any direction. It always lies just over the hill or around the bend, and it imposes itself on any person who wants it or not.
That tends to make a human reflective in different ways than life in a populated state does. We are all puny compared to what surrounds us. This creates a different mindset, and only being out here for a while can ever inform someone who has never experienced it.
Idaho isn't the only state, of course, where this stuff is found; wilderness is still everywhere, but out here, it's EVERYWHERE. Just 20 minutes away. And there's nothing in it that cares a lick for all our pretensions as to how smart we are, or what our wealth is, who we know, or what we own.
The attitudes mentioned here are not singular to Boise. They are shared everywhere in Idaho.
The essential thing an outsider doesn't understand when moving here is we are few, living in a very large and wild state where everything is extreme, vast, and on a much larger natural scale than the small human scale of life in highly populated places elsewhere.
Idahoans are accustomed to being in this remoteness, this wildness, and all this big stuff, where the forces of nature all prevail, period. Standing in line chatting is a human refreshment after spending a day seeing no humanity at all in any direction. That kind of isolation is common here. No one is ever bumper to bumper, surrounded by suburbs, sameness and the press of humanity unless that's what they choose for themselves. Remoteness is the easiest thing to find here in any direction. It always lies just over the hill or around the bend, and it imposes itself on any person who wants it or not.
That tends to make a human reflective in different ways than life in a populated state does. We are all puny compared to what surrounds us. This creates a different mindset, and only being out here for a while can ever inform someone who has never experienced it.
Idaho isn't the only state, of course, where this stuff is found; wilderness is still everywhere, but out here, it's EVERYWHERE. Just 20 minutes away. And there's nothing in it that cares a lick for all our pretensions as to how smart we are, or what our wealth is, who we know, or what we own.
Good insights, thanks for sharing them (the point about remoteness, in particular). It's interesting, the fact that Boise is a mid-sized city (and all of the positive things that entails) *and* has easy access to the wilderness, is the primary draw for me, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. Missoula is another place that seems attractive in that regard.
On the surface, it seems contradictory, but I cherish both the feeling of aloneness that you can only experience in the remoteness of the wilderness, as well as the deeper connections with my fellow human beings that seem more easily accessible only in the close quarters of city life. I'm a people person, and I enjoy interacting with them in meaningful ways, but also need my alone time as well. And the older I get, the more selective I become about who I spend my time with.
The attitudes mentioned here are not singular to Boise. They are shared everywhere in Idaho.
The essential thing an outsider doesn't understand when moving here is we are few, living in a very large and wild state where everything is extreme, vast, and on a much larger natural scale than the small human scale of life in highly populated places elsewhere.
Idahoans are accustomed to being in this remoteness, this wildness, and all this big stuff, where the forces of nature all prevail, period. Standing in line chatting is a human refreshment after spending a day seeing no humanity at all in any direction. That kind of isolation is common here. No one is ever bumper to bumper, surrounded by suburbs, sameness and the press of humanity unless that's what they choose for themselves. Remoteness is the easiest thing to find here in any direction. It always lies just over the hill or around the bend, and it imposes itself on any person who wants it or not.
That tends to make a human reflective in different ways than life in a populated state does. We are all puny compared to what surrounds us. This creates a different mindset, and only being out here for a while can ever inform someone who has never experienced it.
Idaho isn't the only state, of course, where this stuff is found; wilderness is still everywhere, but out here, it's EVERYWHERE. Just 20 minutes away. And there's nothing in it that cares a lick for all our pretensions as to how smart we are, or what our wealth is, who we know, or what we own.
While I always LOVE what you have to say, and unequivocally respect your insights.... I do have to say, I don't see or feel this, having lived throughout Idaho and especially now, living in Boise. At all.
Rather, the crowding, congestion, the people, the rat race (relatively speaking), and just life in 2015 in general (social media, technology, commuting) has made us all pretty edgy, grumpy, and suspicious of other people. Either because of the crowding in the cities, or because many people have tried to escape urbanity and get away from it, and they don't want the intrusion.
I feel that here in Idaho, other people are seen as competition rather than friends or respite. You can learn that reading about the legacy of some of the more famous Idahoans, the mountainmen (and woman) Buckskin Bill, Earl Parrot, Dugout Dick, Polly Bemis, and even Claude Dallas.
I just don't think most Boiseans have that sort of innate, introspective, rooted connection with Idaho and her wild landscapes that you so eloquently describe. Rather, at best, it's a high speed adrenalin fix on a dirt bike, jet ski, or motorboat, or a shotgun camping trip in a luxury 40 ft 5th wheeler, and then back to civilization for work on Monday.
I think now, more than ever, Idahoans have lost that deep connection to the state; in its place, everything has become commoditized, fetishized, transient, and a backdrop for a selfie or a cool Facebook profile pic than anything else. It's not enough to go kayak the North Fork or hike up to Toxoway Lake; you have to capture rad "footie" (footage) of it and post it to all your social media. The introspection, disconnection, and solitude has been lost, unfortunately. And it's becoming more and more fleeting as our lives become more influenced by technology, and as more newcomers move to the state.
I'm a lifelong Idahoan, having lived in a few of her small towns and, for some time now, in Boise. I studied philosophy in college. I have a handful of advanced degrees now. I don't feel much intellectual or spiritual kinship with the majority of people I've encountered in Idaho. Of course, I have an impeccable group of friends and companions who I connect with on many different levels, and there are all sorts and types of people here for anyone to connect with.
But, by and large, there's just a different mentality here among the "locals." You can see it reflected in the politics (and I'm not talking about the new wave of Idaho politicians). It's a bit more good ol' boy, folk-wisdom, independent, traditional, old west than it is the sort of Edward Abbey, John Muir, Aldo Leopold, or Thoreau thinker/naturalist. I think most Idahoans now think of nature as something to ride, conquer, or overcome than as something to respect, live amongst and with, and draw inspiration from. I don't see Romanticism in the typical Idahoan. I think the state rhetoric and discourse is fairly rudimentary, colloquial, and unsophisticated. Idahoans seem to distrust science, scientists, academia, intellectualism, and government... in favor of "common sense" or some divine inspiration or just plain ol' "I know best."
And I don't mean this as snobby commentary. There is value in all of these perspectives, and on the other hand, to each their own, too. It's fine. And this is where your last thoughts - that nature doesn't care how smart or well educated you are - are especially apropos.
everything has become commoditized, fetishized, transient, and a backdrop for a selfie or a cool Facebook profile pic than anything else. It's not enough to go kayak the North Fork or hike up to Toxoway Lake; you have to capture rad "footie" (footage) of it and post it to all your social media. The introspection, disconnection, and solitude has been lost, unfortunately. And it's becoming more and more fleeting as our lives become more influenced by technology
You just described a very pervasive problematic shift within American society as a whole. And I think you're correct that Boise, like the Coeur d'Alene-Post Falls corridor and certainly other populous areas in our state, has fallen victim to it earlier and in greater numbers than more rural areas...which will eventually get there, sadly enough.
While I always LOVE what you have to say, and unequivocally respect your insights.... I do have to say, I don't see or feel this, having lived throughout Idaho and especially now, living in Boise. At all.
Rather, the crowding, congestion, the people, the rat race (relatively speaking), and just life in 2015 in general (social media, technology, commuting) has made us all pretty edgy, grumpy, and suspicious of other people. Either because of the crowding in the cities, or because many people have tried to escape urbanity and get away from it, and they don't want the intrusion.
I feel that here in Idaho, other people are seen as competition rather than friends or respite. You can learn that reading about the legacy of some of the more famous Idahoans, the mountainmen (and woman) Buckskin Bill, Earl Parrot, Dugout Dick, Polly Bemis, and even Claude Dallas.
I just don't think most Boiseans have that sort of innate, introspective, rooted connection with Idaho and her wild landscapes that you so eloquently describe. Rather, at best, it's a high speed adrenalin fix on a dirt bike, jet ski, or motorboat, or a shotgun camping trip in a luxury 40 ft 5th wheeler, and then back to civilization for work on Monday.
I think now, more than ever, Idahoans have lost that deep connection to the state; in its place, everything has become commoditized, fetishized, transient, and a backdrop for a selfie or a cool Facebook profile pic than anything else. It's not enough to go kayak the North Fork or hike up to Toxoway Lake; you have to capture rad "footie" (footage) of it and post it to all your social media. The introspection, disconnection, and solitude has been lost, unfortunately. And it's becoming more and more fleeting as our lives become more influenced by technology, and as more newcomers move to the state.
I'm a lifelong Idahoan, having lived in a few of her small towns and, for some time now, in Boise. I studied philosophy in college. I have a handful of advanced degrees now. I don't feel much intellectual or spiritual kinship with the majority of people I've encountered in Idaho. Of course, I have an impeccable group of friends and companions who I connect with on many different levels, and there are all sorts and types of people here for anyone to connect with.
But, by and large, there's just a different mentality here among the "locals." You can see it reflected in the politics (and I'm not talking about the new wave of Idaho politicians). It's a bit more good ol' boy, folk-wisdom, independent, traditional, old west than it is the sort of Edward Abbey, John Muir, Aldo Leopold, or Thoreau thinker/naturalist. I think most Idahoans now think of nature as something to ride, conquer, or overcome than as something to respect, live amongst and with, and draw inspiration from. I don't see Romanticism in the typical Idahoan. I think the state rhetoric and discourse is fairly rudimentary, colloquial, and unsophisticated. Idahoans seem to distrust science, scientists, academia, intellectualism, and government... in favor of "common sense" or some divine inspiration or just plain ol' "I know best."
And I don't mean this as snobby commentary. There is value in all of these perspectives, and on the other hand, to each their own, too. It's fine. And this is where your last thoughts - that nature doesn't care how smart or well educated you are - are especially apropos.
Thanks for sharing your insights . . . I appreciate your perspective (and your eloquence). In my experience, I've witnessed a lot people defend a whole host of irrational, superstitious, and downright crazy ideas and beliefs in the name of "common sense", and of course because "that's the way we've always done it". And I've lived in places where the local culture frowns upon and ostracizes anyone who dare think differently from the commonly-held beliefs rooted in folk wisdom and religious superstition. In some places, you can avoid these people if you choose, and their influence in the overall culture is minimal, so they fade to the background or become a sort of quaint novelty that you can smile at and chuckle about in a friendly way. In others, they are the norm, and their old-school (backwards, IMO) traditions saturate the local institutions, political, social, and economic, preventing real social progress and clinging to outdated modes of thinking, for fear of venturing into the unknown. It's the latter I'd like to avoid.
Regarding technology, social media, and "selfies" etc., I wonder if this is more of a generational phenomenon and less of a Boise-specific issue, although I imagine it feels more pronounced in a smaller city that has such a traditionally strong connection to nature. Americans, in general, are becoming (IMO) increasingly narcissistic and shallow, and one of the things I thought I would appreciate more about American western culture, to be honest, is the diminished presence of materialism and pop culture that saturates mainstream American culture -- this endless obsession with "stuff". I suppose that is unavoidable short of moving to Europe, where a greater emphasis is placed on quality of life and less on work work work, because we need our "stuff". I've never lived out west, with the exception of a brief three-month stay in Seattle, so perhaps my expectations are off, but I do appreciate the slower pace of life and the more down-to-earth approach to living versus the rat race where everyone is competing to get theirs, come hell or high water. I'm just looking for a place where I can strike that balance.
You just described a very pervasive problematic shift within American society as a whole. And I think you're correct that Boise, like the Coeur d'Alene-Post Falls corridor and certainly other populous areas in our state, has fallen victim to it earlier and in greater numbers than more rural areas...which will eventually get there, sadly enough.
If you really want to get nauseated by it all, you can google search #liveauthentic and a couple of other similar hashtags, wherein through photography and Instagram, nearly every bit of our backcountry is staged as a backdrop for models, clothing lines, action sports, and other empherelia which uses nature, wilderness, and the outdoors generally as some sort of more authentic lifestyle. But they're simply peddling crap. It's all marketing.
And certainly not just limited to Idaho. Arguably, it's been happening for long before social media.
Thanks for sharing your insights . . . I appreciate your perspective (and your eloquence). In my experience, I've witnessed a lot people defend a whole host of irrational, superstitious, and downright crazy ideas and beliefs in the name of "common sense", and of course because "that's the way we've always done it". And I've lived in places where the local culture frowns upon and ostracizes anyone who dare think differently from the commonly-held beliefs rooted in folk wisdom and religious superstition. In some places, you can avoid these people if you choose, and their influence in the overall culture is minimal, so they fade to the background or become a sort of quaint novelty that you can smile at and chuckle about in a friendly way. In others, they are the norm, and their old-school (backwards, IMO) traditions saturate the local institutions, political, social, and economic, preventing real social progress and clinging to outdated modes of thinking, for fear of venturing into the unknown. It's the latter I'd like to avoid.
Well, you'll certainly find that here; less so in Boise, but more in the smaller towns and away from Boise. Politically and culturally we're certainly years, and perhaps decades "behind" other places.
But it's all perspective. For some people, they appreciate it and it's what they're searching for. And like I said, there's value in that sort of mentality, ethic, and worldview.
The best way to put it is that it is simply an artifact of a culture war that is plaguing modern society, and seems to be more and more rigid and divided as life moves on. People pick their sides, and it's hard to see value in the other viewpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NC_Paddler
Regarding technology, social media, and "selfies" etc., I wonder if this is more of a generational phenomenon and less of a Boise-specific issue, although I imagine it feels more pronounced in a smaller city that has such a traditionally strong connection to nature. Americans, in general, are becoming (IMO) increasingly narcissistic and shallow, and one of the things I thought I would appreciate more about American western culture, to be honest, is the diminished presence of materialism and pop culture that saturates mainstream American culture -- this endless obsession with "stuff". I suppose that is unavoidable short of moving to Europe, where a greater emphasis is placed on quality of life and less on work work work, because we need our "stuff". I've never lived out west, with the exception of a brief three-month stay in Seattle, so perhaps my expectations are off, but I do appreciate the slower pace of life and the more down-to-earth approach to living versus the rat race where everyone is competing to get theirs, come hell or high water. I'm just looking for a place where I can strike that balance.
Well, while it's everywhere, it's also pretty easy to avoid if you so choose. Likewise, if you're ambitious enough, you can get away from the maddening crowd and into some places where you're likely not to see or hear another soul for as long as you like.
However, living in Boise and working the M-F 9 to 5, it's pretty hard to really get that far into the backcountry on a weekend. If you can arrange an alternative schedule wherein you either get 3-4 days off in a row, or else your days off are on a weekday, certainly you can escape the lumbersexual, weekend warrior, REI crowd.
Thanks for sharing your insights . . . I appreciate your perspective (and your eloquence). In my experience, I've witnessed a lot people defend a whole host of irrational, superstitious, and downright crazy ideas and beliefs in the name of "common sense", and of course because "that's the way we've always done it". And I've lived in places where the local culture frowns upon and ostracizes anyone who dare think differently from the commonly-held beliefs rooted in folk wisdom and religious superstition. In some places, you can avoid these people if you choose, and their influence in the overall culture is minimal, so they fade to the background or become a sort of quaint novelty that you can smile at and chuckle about in a friendly way. In others, they are the norm, and their old-school (backwards, IMO) traditions saturate the local institutions, political, social, and economic, preventing real social progress and clinging to outdated modes of thinking, for fear of venturing into the unknown. It's the latter I'd like to avoid.
Regarding technology, social media, and "selfies" etc., I wonder if this is more of a generational phenomenon and less of a Boise-specific issue, although I imagine it feels more pronounced in a smaller city that has such a traditionally strong connection to nature. Americans, in general, are becoming (IMO) increasingly narcissistic and shallow, and one of the things I thought I would appreciate more about American western culture, to be honest, is the diminished presence of materialism and pop culture that saturates mainstream American culture -- this endless obsession with "stuff". I suppose that is unavoidable short of moving to Europe, where a greater emphasis is placed on quality of life and less on work work work, because we need our "stuff". I've never lived out west, with the exception of a brief three-month stay in Seattle, so perhaps my expectations are off, but I do appreciate the slower pace of life and the more down-to-earth approach to living versus the rat race where everyone is competing to get theirs, come hell or high water. I'm just looking for a place where I can strike that balance.
One man's "social progress" is another man's social decay.
There is significant peril in attempting to link "intellectualism" with a particular sociopolitical viewpoint set. And it would be a mistake to assume that intellect is the driving force behind today's socially "progressive" thought. Fact is that it is much easier to make a case for the opposite. So I get stuck very quickly as a result of what seems to be your premise.
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