Rename Yawkey Way? (Boston, Templeton: racist, donated, baptist)

[City Guy997S]

Originally Posted by missionhill

One egregious example is Templeton Street in Dorchester, now named Monsignor Patrick J. Lydon Way. wtf? Who is that? What if you came late to the scene, you're not a St Mark's parishioner and don't necessarily want to be associated with a forgotten Catholic priest? Maybe you're Jewish or Baptist or Muslim or anything but an old school Irish Catholic-- would you want to buy a house on "Monsignor Patrick J. Lydon Way?"

Well in most places if a street is MLK blvd then you know you are in a bad neighborhood!

Yawkey was a team owner, valid for naming the street outside his business. He was racist like Archie Bunker but that was acceptable at the time! Some folks thought the world was flat, in 1492 Columbus proved them wrong.....flat world was acceptable in 1491!

[ogre]

Originally Posted by BostonMike7

Leave it alone.

I agree. First of all I'm very uneasy about the push in recent years to erase parts of history that many now find unacceptable. That more general issue is not the thread topic, so I'll leave it at that, except to say that one issue with the history rewrite push is that people often don't even have the facts correct about the history they want to strike from the record. The comments quoted below are examples. At worst they are inaccurate. At best they fail to closely examine the ebbs, flows, and complexity of the Sox' history under Yawkey's stewardship.

Originally Posted by btownboss4

Why is Fenway Park on Yawkey Way? It's named after basically the worst owner ever. He put out perpetually terrible teams, he hated Fenway Park, and was a horrible Racist.
why don't we rename the street after John Henry, he saved Fenway Park and won 3 Championships for the Sox, that's a guy worth honoring.

What's the basis for saying he was "a horrible Racist" [sic]? Maybe there's something I've never heard or read about, but I know of no instance when Yawkey was known to have uttered bigoted statements. Unless there is another prejudice at work where some people assume that he must have been a racist simply because he was a Southerner raised in the Jim Crow era, the only evidence of bigotry seems to be the club's slow start in integrating.

Where it gets complicated is with the fact that in the later Yawkey years the Sox had quite a few black players. In fact, with the likes of George Scott, Reggie Smith, Elston Howard, Luis Tiant, Orlando Cepeda, Tommy Harper, Juan Marichal, Cecil Cooper, Rogelio Moret, and Jim Rice (and this list is not complete, but names only most of the better known examples), the Sox were well represented by black players, including quite a few stars.

Looking at those names, it's clear that Yawkey did not finally integrate the team simply to give in to public pressure but then maintain merely a token presence of black players. To the contrary, black players were a significant presence from the mid '60's to mid '70's, and added a lot to the team's performance.

Actually, if you start trying to name black players for the Sox in the '80's and the early '90's, really even through the mid '90's, you see that despite the presence of some notable individuals (Rice (though he was a relic of the Yawkey ere), Boyd, Vaughn), black players for about 20 years after Yawkey's death were only a scattered presence on the club, while in Yawkey's last 10 years or so they were well represented and made a serious impact.

This record shows how sometimes the history people dismiss across the boards as "racist" or whatever-ist is not so simple, or easy to pin down if you look more closely. While the history that leads to descriptions like "horrible Racist" [sic] is complex, the assertion that Yawkey "put out perpetually terrible teams" is just plan incorrect.

Take a look at the actual record: three pennants ('46, '67, '75), with all three World Series going seven games, despite the fact that the Sox were heavy underdogs in '67 and '75; second-place finishes in '38, '39, '41, '42, '48, '49, and '72, with the last three of those races going down to the wire (first-place tie leading to a tie-breaker game in '48, down to the last day of the season in '49, next-to-last day in '72); winning record every season from '67 on through the rest of Yawkey's life and well beyond.

Yes, there were lousy years too. Yawkey's ownership lasted more than 40 years. It's not surprising that a team would have a lot of ups and downs and in-betweens over as long a time as that. In any case, it's laughable to describe their record as "perpetually terrible."

Originally Posted by btownboss4

why, all Yawkey did was not die for a while, he has zero accomplishments.

No world championships, true. But zero accomplishments? Hmmm.

In 1933 Yawkey became the owner of a team that had not had a winning record since 1919, and had finished last eight times. They finally had a winning record in Yawkey's second year of ownership, then had four second-place finishes in the late '30's and early '40's before WWII disrupted everything. That was followed by a stretch where the Sox were contenders almost every year, including a pennant in '46.

Then there was '67. Those too young to remember have probably heard about how this was the start of what is now known as Red Sox Nation. Your reaction might be something like ho-hum, sure, whatever. Those of us old enough to have lived through that season know it's true.

After a long bland stretch in the late '50's and early to mid '60's, where the team was bad, and going to a ball game was just kind of something fun to do on a summer day, a generation suddenly fell head over heels in love with the Sox in that one season of 1967. If '67 had not happened, sure the Sox would have a following today, a following that would certainly be enthusiastic if they'd had the success they've had this century so far, but the Sox' status as a huge institution and integral part of the way of life in the New England region traces back to that one magical year, 1967.

Look at this record and it just can't seriously be asserted that Yawkey had "zero accomplishments." Turning the team around from perpetual doormat status during his early years, and then putting together the front office that built the '67 team, and the winning teams that followed, is enough right there to give Yawkey a special place in Sox history.

If you want to ignore those accomplishments on the grounds that Yawkey was racist, well, I dunno. As I said above, maybe Yawkey was an open bigot, but I've never heard of this. The sole basis for accusations of racism seems to be Yawkey's record of being slow to integrate the club.

But if we're going to use the record of signing black players (or not) as evidence of Yawkey's views, a look at the collection of fine black players who wore the Sox uniform in Yawkey's last decade or so tells you that he clearly moved past any early reluctance to sign black players. At the very least, the history is too shifting and complex to firmly dismiss Yawkey with the blanket simplistic assertion that he was a racist and nothing but a racist.

[ctr88]

While we are at it, lets get rid of everything named after JFK. Since he got us into the criminal Vietnam War and got 55,000 American boys killed, hundreds of thousands maimed, and millions of Vietnamese dead. His father also made all his money as a crook.

While we are at it, Mongolia should get rid of all the statues of Ghenghis Khan since he raped and pillaged the world. And also Rome should knock down the Roman Collesium since it was probably built by the labor of slaves and oppressed people. And also get rid of every statue of any Roman leader of the Roman empire since they probably oppressed and enslaved a lot of people.

Oh yeah, the Egyptians should knock down all the Pyramids too since they were probably built by slaves and oppressed people. And FDR appointed a former KKK guy to the supreme court, so lets take down every statue and anything named after him too. Anything named after Bill Cosby? Woody Allen married his daughter...anything named after him?

The Persian and Greek empires probably oppressed and enslaved people so they should take down all their statues too (keep the food though...great food). Oh and don't forget of course Jefferson, Washington, Madison....they all have to come down too of course. Didn't Henry Ford aid the Nazi's? Everything Ford MUST GO.

Chris Colombus, Captain Cook and Magellen were real pricks too...all their statues should be gone.

This all should be our new infrastructure stimulus bill....we can create jobs and get people working by taking down statues, monuments, re-naming streets.

[such sweet thunder]

ogre and crt88,

The "we shouldn't erase history" argument goes wildly off kilter because there is no structural equivalent to slavery in the United States. We could leave the confederate statues up if there was a true reckoning in this country. We're nowhere close to being ready as long as school history books try to point toward exceptionalism or individualism or anything other than captive labor and unspeakable, immoral acts as the basis for our country's economic might.

We put Thomas Jefferson's face on a goddamned mountain top and that dude raped children.

The story of our country is of the story of subjugation. Every current social-political battle in this country seems to trace back to slavery. The politicians know this innately and embrace it, but historians and the general public seem to look the other way.

Our country has never come to grips with it is, and until we have a true moment of self realization, I'm in favor of anything that gets us a step closer.

[Qwh]

Name it Ortiz Way after David Ortiz

[robr2]

IMHO, 2004 Way sounds a lot better to me.

[raider21]

how about FenWay? so rename every thing in Boston that has the Yawkey name on it? which means mostly things that the Yawkey Foundation built, started or funds and many if not all benefit those less fortunate or ill. Sure, no accomplishments

[blktoptrvl]

Rename it Baseball Place?

[Crashj007]

Originally Posted by StuartGotts

Can we PLEASE stop naming streets, bridges, tunnels, greenways etc after people?!!!
<>

You can just use numbers and letters? Numbers run East-West, Letters run North-South.
Oh. Wait. Boston? Nevermind.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by ogre

If you want to ignore those accomplishments on the grounds that Yawkey was racist, well, I dunno. As I said above, maybe Yawkey was an open bigot, but I've never heard of this. The sole basis for accusations of racism seems to be Yawkey's record of being slow to integrate the club.

That is what disturbs me... also, there are tons of things around Boston named for people.. for instance Peter Brigham -- Brigham and Womens' Hospital.

So what exactly was his record on integrating his staff with black doctors. Bad you say? Well, Racist ! I mean where does it end?