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I have heard others ask on the forums if Dallas was preachy and a religious and conservative town, so i wanted to know if Boston was liberal and intolerant town, intolerant of others views and way of life besides the left?
I'm curious - do you feel that liberal and intolerant are two attributes that go hand-in-hand? Do you feel that it is even possible to be liberal and not be intolerant? Because if you are asking the question with that bias (some would say, with that intolerance), then you may immediately discount any replies that refute that the two - liberal and intolerant - go hand-in-hand.
I think Boston's a great town - liberal, diverse, young, religious, historic, sports-crazed ..... and tolerant.
I lived in Boston for four years. I am by no means an extreme conservative-- way more libertarian, but heck, when I moved to Boston I was pretty apolitical over all. I am also a Christian... but even then I have always been very live-and-let live and liberal theologically. Additionally, I love America. And not just the "dream of equality and freedom" America, but the America of Texan ranchers, Iowan farmers, desert roads in Nevada and quiet towns in Alabama. In other words, by national standards I am pretty normal. Before moving to Boston, I never gave these attributes much thought, and never looked at people through the liberal/conservative lens (given I was 18 at the time).
However, in Boston I felt extremely isolated because of my views. Given, I was in the middle of the city and on a college campus, but all around I did not see the America I was used to (and I am from another state in New England). On my campus, I usually kept my mouth shut. But- and others agree with me- if I had been a drug-addict transvestite I would have gotten more "acceptance" than if I had revealed to people that I was a Republican and a "born-again" Christian. A friend of mine had a "Bush 2004" sticker in his apartment window-- the next day he had a brick thrown through that window.
The people I knew in Boston left no room for debate over any issues. I live in a very liberal area of the South now, and people here will at least entertain debate and separate politics from friendship. Up there, it was just assumed that I was anti-Iraq, Bush-hating, pro-affirmative action in all cases, pro-welfare programs, etc. If I revealed that I disagreed on any of these issues, I'd have to defend myself endlessly- so I eventually gave up trying.
Boston seemed very hostile to me religiously as well. Most people there are Catholic, Jewish, or nothing. Now in the blue-collar neighborhoods you can get a lot of great, church-going Catholics. But at the university level and in white-collar areas, it seemed that even those proclaiming Catholicism or Judaism didn't even believe in God. I am not judging these people. However, it was a shock given my time spent in the rest of the country where "born-again" Protestants make up at least 33% of the population. Again, this became an area where it was just assumed you were not Christian-friendly at all. For example, a professor of mine started one of his lectures on St. Augustine by saying something like "I regret having to teach this particular book, as I find Christianity to be nothing more than self-torture worship" or something crazy like that. I think the vast majority of Americans would find this offensive. I got up and left the class. Every one else just laughed.
Finally, I absolutely hated the provincialism of Boston. Most people there thought that the sun rose and set on New England, and that maybe New York and California were worthwhile places to go, but, beyond that, the rest of the country was a Bush-loving hell-hole to be avoided at all costs. They really bashed anything about rural America, especially the South. Their opinions of the South are in line with what the South was approximately 50 years ago-- and even then it might be an exaggerated view. But, again, most had never been even as far south as Virginia.
Overall, I have lived in 7 states, 10 cities, 3 other countries. Boston is not even the most liberal place I have lived. But it is by far the only place I have ever felt that I wasn't accepted for who I am-- which is a white, Christian, slightly conservative American (so, 50% of the country?).
Okay, I know this post sounds bitter, but I really did have fun in Boston beyond that!
I think that it's unrealistic to be a human being with opinions and also to be completely intolerant. I would say that liberals are less intolerant than conservatives. For example, being a liberal and accepting of gay marriages, why would I feel tolerant towards those who are against them? I have many gay friends, so for me, anyone against gay marriages is an enemy to my gay friends, therefore a potential enemy to me when I am supporting gay rights. Another example would be that I am an atheist. In general, I don't care what anyone else's spirituality is until it interferes or upsets my life. Ones spirituality should be a private matter, not flung in the face of others. And I don't take kindly to anyone trying to actively convert me to their religion and unfortunately Christians have a tendency to try to gather more into their flock. And I objected to GW Bush during one speech to our military announcing that "god is with us" and potentially turning our war into a jihad of christians against muslims. That sort of nonsense is what I object to and would be intolerant of.
Well Silviodante2, rest assured! The beauty of this, is you don't have to worry about living in a part of the country that has extremely high cost of living, and bad weather. You can live in an area more to your liking, and enjoy better weather with more affordability.
If you've been listening to the media, you're probably aware that G.W. Bush is considered one of the worst presidents of all time, from both republicans and democrats from various parts of the country, not just New England.
My experience is not just limited to an academic environment where one lives, sleeps, and breaths on a college campus but as a life long resident. I think Bostonians are a diverse group and are very objective in their thinking.
As far as not being accepted as a member of the "born-again" Christian sect, you have to ask yourself, "why might people be on the defense when exclaiming your religious affiliation?" Could it be because of the self-righteous attitude many people have associated as synonomous with Christians? The holier than thow attitude? And, the "if you don't believe as I do, you're going to hell mind-set"? If you lived here, you probably became aware that many illectual, well-read people do not take the bible so literally, as is often the case with many God-fearing Christians. And a large percentage don't believe it should be used as a basis to justify oppressing or denying ones right to equality. With that in mind, there are numerous churches here available to suit whatever needs ones religious affiliation may desire.
1979 raises a good point. If silviodante2 was being a flamboyant religious conservative during his college years in Boston, naturally he wouldn't be welcomed with open arms as potential close friend material. First, I think that ones colleges years are naturally the time to be the most openminded and liberal thinking period in anyone's life. Later on, everyone tends to become more conservative thinking and set in ones ways, just like ones parents and grandparents. Secondly, he would have been more accepted had he kept his Christian conservative beliefs more private until he got to know his friends better. With the majority of my casual friends and co-workers, I have no idea what their spiritual beliefs are and during this last election cycle, politics were not much discussed. I felt no need to try to convert others to vote my way, and my acquaintances felt the same way. As it was, despite the endorsements from the Kennedys and Duval Patrick, Hillary beat Obama by a decent margin during the primaries. And we've had several Republican governors during my lifetime. So Massachusetts is not mindlessly ultra liberal.
I have heard others ask on the forums if Dallas was preachy and a religious and conservative town, so i wanted to know if Boston was liberal and intolerant town, intolerant of others views and way of life besides the left?
See in Massachusetts, we don't like preaching about anything. No flags or banners declaring our affiliations, just co-existing in relative peace and quiet. No fake polite gestures, we don't pretend to love everyone we see on the streets, I feel that we're honest about our feelings also.
In the South, I felt a lot of polite friendliness that didn't seem that sincere and it felt a bit creepy with every casual exchange ending with a "god bless you". Sort of a Stepford wives sort of situation.
In the South, I felt a lot of polite friendliness that didn't seem that sincere and it felt a bit creepy with every casual exchange ending with a "god bless you". Sort of a Stepford wives sort of situation.
What part of the south did you go to? I have never had anyone end a casual exchange with "God bless you". You might get called "hun", but that's about it.
1979 raises a good point. If silviodante2 was being a flamboyant religious conservative during his college years in Boston, naturally he wouldn't be welcomed with open arms as potential close friend material. First, I think that ones colleges years are naturally the time to be the most openminded and liberal thinking period in anyone's life. Later on, everyone tends to become more conservative thinking and set in ones ways, just like ones parents and grandparents. Secondly, he would have been more accepted had he kept his Christian conservative beliefs more private until he got to know his friends better. With the majority of my casual friends and co-workers, I have no idea what their spiritual beliefs are and during this last election cycle, politics were not much discussed. I felt no need to try to convert others to vote my way, and my acquaintances felt the same way. As it was, despite the endorsements from the Kennedys and Duval Patrick, Hillary beat Obama by a decent margin during the primaries. And we've had several Republican governors during my lifetime. So Massachusetts is not mindlessly ultra liberal.
Actually miu, if you had read my post you would have surmised that I was actually very quiet about my religious/political beliefs. Like I said, I have a very live-and-let live attitude about both issues. I had a great time in Boston, made many friends, but still don't think its right that I had to "hide" who I was when if I was a Muslim, Buddhist, or weird New Age-y dirt worshiper they would have listened to my opinions with total respect and open arms.
Boston people are not only provincial geographically, but also in their world-view. You so assume that liberal/secular/humanism is the way to go that a Christian, for example, is just a deviation on the radar that is fine as long as they don't espouse their beliefs. What you don't realize is that you also subscribe to a not entirely rational world view with its own prejudices and biases.
While you stereotype Christians as being "flamboyant" and essentially tell them they need to shut up if they speak their world view, this is actually my precise complaint about liberal Bostonians. They are far worse than the most Bible-thumping preacher in Alabama in their desire to spread their ideology on everyone and anyone, and are far less willing to accept true diversity-- diversity of thought. In this sense, Boston is one of the least diverse places in the country.
For all the people with Jesus fish stickers on their cars, how many more people are there who will never take off their Kerry/Edwards stickers? For every crazy sidewalk preacher, how many Greenpeace/Sierra Club solicitors plague the sidewalks? I have actually never been preached to by a stranger in my entire life. I have, however, been screamed at for eating meat, and almost physically accosted by a lost-soul littering the streets with some kind of "Communist Youth" newsletter. Where?... Boston of course. Not every Democrat is a secular/humanist/atheist-- not by a long shot. But these kind of "evangelical secularists" abound in Boston.
I have lived many places that are more "blue" than Boston in voting trends, including my current city (that I love), and people are way more accepting of people that disagree with them. If someone is a Christian, they have every right to make that a huge part of their life. Maybe if you've never had beliefs of your own you wouldn't understand why that is so.
I'm fairly moderate and have lived in relatively conservative Louisiana and now live in relatively liberal Massachusetts and I think I understand to some degrees both sides of the argument here. In both places, I have been in situations where people have made broad political statements in polite conversation and fully expected everyone listening to be in full agreement as if the matter were already decided. In both places I've held my tongue in political "discussions" where two or more people debate just how stupid supporters of the other side of the argument, conveniently not present, are in believing whatever it is they believe. And, occasionally, when I have ventured a dissenting opinion I have been cajoled and lectured until I either left or resigned. These events certainly aren't a majority of my experience, but occurred enough in both locations that I know they were not simply isolated incidents.
I can definitely see how all of those things could be considered intolerance, but I personally don't think it's that. It's more complacency of thought or the misguided belief that someone with ideas or beliefs different than yours achieved those ideas or beliefs through some flaw in their thinking or character. This phenomena is especially prevelent when most or all of the people believe one way and dissent is unusual or fail to recognize that dissent, not just error, is possible.
In some sense, this is how cultures differentiate themselves and like miu said is probably something we're all guilty of. Even the concepts of "don't flaunt your religious beliefs" and "live and let live" are somewhat American and relatively (at least on the scale of centuries) modern; it's still a matter a debate whether it is more or less tolerant to tell another country that they have to allow religious freedom, for instance.
Frankly the Northeast US and Southeast US aren't all that different from each other and this so called intolerance is really so slight--usually just someone being rude or insulting--that it hardly seems worth worrying too much about. Last I checked if someone calls you stupid and greedy for being conservative or that you're going to hell for being an atheist is still legal and rarely requires stitches. Sure it sucks when someone is a jerk, but as I've been told many times, dealing with that sort of stuff is part of being a grown-up.
As for real intolerence, the kind that actaully interferes with your life, things like restricting what you can legally do with other consenting adults, which deities you can legally or practically worship, or feeling unsafe because of your beliefs, religion, culture, or language, Boston is definitely not more intolerent than most of the other parts of the country.
Last edited by jayrandom; 01-17-2009 at 03:42 PM..
Reason: horrible late night grammar and speeling
You really have to come here to get an understanding of what it is like to live in, what might be considered the most intellectual city in the country.
I don't consider Boston that left wing. But, the question is, what do you consider "intolerant"? People who believe in a religion that promotes intolerance? This would be an example of something a lot of us here don't tolerate.
If there is one thing we will not tolerate it is INTOLERANCE.
You will find ignorant people everywhere you go in this country and world, Boston is no exception.
But personally I only know a very small number of people that would describe themselves as racist, homophobe, etc. Most people I know are very much the opposite, they want to be recognized as NOT having any of those feelings towards people.
Every type of person you can imagine is well represented in Boston and most of Massachusetts. This place has crazy liberals, crazy conservatives, faithfully religious and stubbornly atheist.
But the rule is tolerance. Defend your neighbor's right to say whatever they believe. and believe whatever they may. To lose this concept is to lose our American-ness.
Freedom of and from religion are taken quite seriously here. And just like the Governor said the other night...
IN MASSACHUSETTS EQUAL IS EQUAL!
So no matter what people are or what they believe they are welcome in Massachusetts, and welcome to vocalize what they believe.
If that includes an intolerant view of a segment of our society than they should expect a contrary opinion, and likely a very confrontational one at that!
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