U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Boxing
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-27-2019, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 172,899 times
Reputation: 358

Advertisements

This is mix of carrer achievements and head to head ability.

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Mike Tyson
4.Jack Johnson
5.George Foreman
6.Larry Holmes
7.Sonny Liston
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Joe Frazier
10.Rocky Marciano

Would you chande anything? Post your lists.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-28-2019, 10:08 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
5,761 posts, read 4,528,524 times
Reputation: 5029
Good list. Tyson was a killer up to the Buster Douglas match then a bum after that.

My grandfather always talked about how good Floyd Patterson was
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2019, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 172,899 times
Reputation: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Good list. Tyson was a killer up to the Buster Douglas match then a bum after that.

My grandfather always talked about how good Floyd Patterson was
Floyd Patterson was technically very gifted boxer but his mandible was very fragile. His potential fights with heavy handed offensive fighters like Foreman, Tyson, or Marciano would be almost certain early ko on him like with Liston.

I honestly do not think that after getting out of prison Mike Tyson even trained properly. He just did not give a damn by then. But head to head I would put Tyson as best heavyweight ever. Its' just that his reign was much shorter than the one of Ali or Louis so I can't really put him above them.

Lets also not forget that untill 60s most heayweights would be considered cruiserweights by todays standard. Many of them weighted less than 200 pounds. That is what makes it hard to compare them objectively to todays fighters.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2019, 10:31 AM
 
3,220 posts, read 1,303,189 times
Reputation: 2183
I'm no boxing aficionado, but how is Holyfield not above Tyson when he beat him twice?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2019, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 172,899 times
Reputation: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
I'm no boxing aficionado, but how is Holyfield not above Tyson when he beat him twice?
That is because he beat Tyson in 1996 and 1997 when Tyson was just shell of himself and did not even train to those fights. Had Holyfield beaten Tyson in 1986 and 1987 instead of 1996 and 1997 while Tyson was in his prime I would have ranked Holyfield above Tyson but that was not the case.

Rocky Marciano also beat Joe Louis but I as most people rank Joe Louis higher because when Marciano beat him he was just a shell of himself, broke guy who just needed money to pay his debts.

Of course it could be argued that some of those boxers should be above Tyson when taken into consideration their overall carrers longevity and their best wins but as I said before, my list is based as much on carrer longevity as it is on head to head skills, abilities when those fighters were in their primes. And prime for prime I would favor Tyson above any heavyweight fighter ever including Louis and Ali. Ali is the only one that I would have my doubts but I would still pick 86-88 Tyson.

Of course if someone would make this list differentely I would not mind as all of those guys were phenomenal fighters. It is all subjective. Regards.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 10-30-2019 at 12:34 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2019, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale
1,857 posts, read 967,942 times
Reputation: 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
That is because he beat Tyson in 1996 and 1997 when Tyson was just shell of himself and did not even train to those fights. Had Holyfield beaten Tyson in 1986 and 1987 instead of 1996 and 1997 while Tyson was in his prime I would have ranked Holyfield above Tyson but that was not the case.

Rocky Marciano also beat Joe Louis but I as most people rank Joe Louis higher because when Marciano beat him he was just a shell of himself, broke guy who just needed money to pay his debts.

Of course it could be argued that some of those boxers should be above Tyson when taken into consideration their overall carrers longevity and their best wins but as I said before, my list is based as much on carrer longevity as it is on head to head skills, abilities when those fighters were in their primes. And prime for prime I would favor Tyson above any heavyweight fighter ever including Louis and Ali. Ali is the only one that I would have my doubts but I would still pick 86-88 Tyson.

Of course if someone would make this list differentely I would not mind as all of those guys were phenomenal fighters. It is all subjective. Regards.
Tyson was at his best in the 1980s. His fight with Michael Spinks was ridiculously one-sided. The problem with that Buster Douglas fight was Tyson's corner - they were horrible and couldn't close his cut. His eyes got swollen, and he lost his vision. After that it was an easy knockout by Douglas. Tyson should have kept Rooney in his corner, but he was treated badly as a trainer. Tyson also lost an ally in Teddy Atlas when he mistreated his sister. So, Tyson's inabilty to work well with the great trainers of his time hurt him badly. By 1995 he was past his prime after all that beating he took. The prison term didn't help either. I read the book by Jose Torres about Tyson, and at the end of the book he wrote about a Jewish concentration survivor who told him that Tyson would not last long. The Jewish survivor spoke of WWII and the concentration camps. He said Tyson's situation in the impoverished neighborhoods of his youth were like concentration camps. The Jewish survivor said he knew what it took to survive a harsh concentration camp - only a few make it. And he thought Tyson was not one of them - hence he would lose soon. This prediction was made around 1988 when Tyson was still undefeated and taking the ring by storm. That Jewish guy was right.

I agree that Joe Louis was well past his prime when he fought Marciano. It was a mismatch. But still, I can see why Marciano is ranked lower than some fighters because he really should have lost to Archie Moore who should have knocked him out. But the referee started the count late. In that time, the 1950s, segregation and racism were in full force, so a white referee gave Marciano a slow count. But still, it can be argued that if Moore was able to knock him down and not get a fair count, then why not just knock him down again? I guess Moore punched himself out during that early knowdown. But he was also about 45 years old when he almost beat Marciano. I can't picture a 45 year old Marciano going 9 rounds with the elite heavyweights of the 1960s - Henry Cooper, Ali, Liston, etc. Hence, some boxing historians don't rank Marciano at #1 all-time, but he was still great for his era.

My favorite fight of the 1940s was a young Billy Conn against a young Joe Louis. Conn, a light heavyweight, was an Irish boxer. He was actually ahead on points into the 13th round. Conn's mistake was in punching himself out in trying to knock out Louis. If he had just played safe in the last two rounds he probably would have won on points. But Louis made him pay for that.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2019, 05:39 AM
Status: "He's trying to pull a Ronald 'McDonald' Miller scam on us.." (set 2 days ago)
 
2,162 posts, read 1,325,685 times
Reputation: 4138
My opinion, Rocky Marciano at #1.. no (professional) opponent ever proved they were better. /peace
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-01-2019, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 172,899 times
Reputation: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by grad_student200 View Post
Tyson was at his best in the 1980s. His fight with Michael Spinks was ridiculously one-sided. The problem with that Buster Douglas fight was Tyson's corner - they were horrible and couldn't close his cut. His eyes got swollen, and he lost his vision. After that it was an easy knockout by Douglas. Tyson should have kept Rooney in his corner, but he was treated badly as a trainer. Tyson also lost an ally in Teddy Atlas when he mistreated his sister. So, Tyson's inabilty to work well with the great trainers of his time hurt him badly. By 1995 he was past his prime after all that beating he took. The prison term didn't help either. I read the book by Jose Torres about Tyson, and at the end of the book he wrote about a Jewish concentration survivor who told him that Tyson would not last long. The Jewish survivor spoke of WWII and the concentration camps. He said Tyson's situation in the impoverished neighborhoods of his youth were like concentration camps. The Jewish survivor said he knew what it took to survive a harsh concentration camp - only a few make it. And he thought Tyson was not one of them - hence he would lose soon. This prediction was made around 1988 when Tyson was still undefeated and taking the ring by storm. That Jewish guy was right.

I agree that Joe Louis was well past his prime when he fought Marciano. It was a mismatch. But still, I can see why Marciano is ranked lower than some fighters because he really should have lost to Archie Moore who should have knocked him out. But the referee started the count late. In that time, the 1950s, segregation and racism were in full force, so a white referee gave Marciano a slow count. But still, it can be argued that if Moore was able to knock him down and not get a fair count, then why not just knock him down again? I guess Moore punched himself out during that early knowdown. But he was also about 45 years old when he almost beat Marciano. I can't picture a 45 year old Marciano going 9 rounds with the elite heavyweights of the 1960s - Henry Cooper, Ali, Liston, etc. Hence, some boxing historians don't rank Marciano at #1 all-time, but he was still great for his era.

My favorite fight of the 1940s was a young Billy Conn against a young Joe Louis. Conn, a light heavyweight, was an Irish boxer. He was actually ahead on points into the 13th round. Conn's mistake was in punching himself out in trying to knock out Louis. If he had just played safe in the last two rounds he probably would have won on points. But Louis made him pay for that.
Not to mention that Buster Douglas should have been knocked out. The count for him in that fight was much longer than 10. I think it was 17 seconds.

With Marciano what speaks against him is that he fought in one of the weakest heavyweight eras in boxing similar to Ktitschkos. And he retired early before he could match himself with other great fighters at their primes like Patterson or Liston. He also often was losing his fights to past primes opponents like Walcott until knocking them out later in the fights. Not that there is somethnig wrong with it. But I think those would be reasons why most people do not rate him as much as Ali and Louis are rated.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2019, 05:54 AM
 
475 posts, read 150,176 times
Reputation: 970
This is contraversial but i loved Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes, both were boring fighters but I loved them because of their jabs. LH could KO people with his jab.

For me, amazing power is George. To this day, we are challenged to find someone with equal power. SMH at his disabilitating knockouts, amazing.

ALI is the greatest because he was a tactician, fast and amazing jaw. I wish he was still alive.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2020, 01:27 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
354 posts, read 69,584 times
Reputation: 266
That's a fact; the Buster Douglass knockout was the longest count we ever saw
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Boxing
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top