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Old 08-31-2022, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leona Valley View Post
Point I was trying to make was that Ali wasn’t as great as some make him out to be. Norton was also in my opinion unfairly given an L in one of their fights where I and many feel he outfought Ali and I’m not referring to the fight where Norton won and Ali received a broken jaw.

I believe Tyson would beat Ali but some of that could be due to advancements in training and nutrition. Different eras. What would a prime Ali do with a prime Tyson Fury?
What age? I think a 20 or 21 year old Mike probably beats any other heavyweight at age 20 or 21. He was a monster when he was that age, a real early bloomer. By age 25, 30, 35, he wasn't the equal of Holyfield or Lewis, so only a puncher's chance against Ali, who had a really good chin.

Now Tyson FURY versus Ali would be spectacular. Fury would have a huge size advantage and as we know is quick as h$$$ for a guy his size. He would give anyone nightmares. Ali's quick hands and feet could probably close the distance to counter and get back out in time to avoid serious damage if Fury comes towards him, but Fury is more than happy to box off his back foot too and play the counter punching game. Until somebody beats Fury, it is hard to see how he loses a boxing match when locked in. What would the formula be?
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Old 09-01-2022, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
What age? I think a 20 or 21 year old Mike probably beats any other heavyweight at age 20 or 21. He was a monster when he was that age, a real early bloomer. By age 25, 30, 35, he wasn't the equal of Holyfield or Lewis, so only a puncher's chance against Ali, who had a really good chin.

Now Tyson FURY versus Ali would be spectacular. Fury would have a huge size advantage and as we know is quick as h$$$ for a guy his size. He would give anyone nightmares. Ali's quick hands and feet could probably close the distance to counter and get back out in time to avoid serious damage if Fury comes towards him, but Fury is more than happy to box off his back foot too and play the counter punching game. Until somebody beats Fury, it is hard to see how he loses a boxing match when locked in. What would the formula be?
Deontay Wilder clone with actual boxing technique. We saw Wilder knock Fury down twice in one fight even though he has zero boxing knowhow. Of course, that boxer has not come forward yet.
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Old 09-01-2022, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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The problem with this thread is that the premise was both boxers in their primes, yet I'm seeing numerous responses about when Tyson lost to Holyfield/Buster/Lewis. He wasnt in his prime for any of those fights. His prime ended once Satan himself Don King got him to fire Rooney. His technique and training went straight into the gutter after that.

With Ali, it's a bit more complicated. His prime was undoubtedly before the draft suspension, yet most of his legendary fights were afterwards. The only fighter from his prime period that comes somewhat close to replicating Tyson would have been Liston, and we can all agree that Liston wasnt anywhere near the same fighter as Tyson.

I personally dont think the mind games would have worked on the prime Tyson, not with Cus D'Amato by his side. Cus knew Ali well, would have known all about the head games and prepared Tyson for them.
The young Tyson had tremendous stamina, and a criminally underrated defense. I think he would have been able to chase Ali around for 15 rounds, and since Ali was not a hard puncher, he would have zero chance of knocking Tyson out. I think Ali loses on decision.
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Old 09-01-2022, 07:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
I think a prime Ali would of been a better matchup than a prime Lennox Lewis (while not saying that lennox is in ali's world.......)

i think it still would of been tough for mike - about a year and a half ago I rewatched all of his fights and remembed just how dangerous and dynamic he was

he did have good head movement, such a strong punch and a killer instinct

I could see Ali being more polished and smarter in the ring - also more experienced in fighting - it's also not like Ali couldn't take a shot, foreman, norton, etc all banged and it's not like frazier was feather handed

where I think Ali could get himself in trouble is being a bit too cute and leaving too many openings - it would be boring to fight the fight that would wear out tyson

which is why I think lewis with that tall posture and fierce jab would of just spent the whole fight frustrating and bruising mike before eventually dropping him
Lennox only had trouble with Men his own size (which is why he retired). After the Older Klitcho tagged him at will, you could see Lewis was not unbeatable. NEVER-THE-LESS, Lewis won that decision.

Tyson would have knocked Ali out~ JUST TOO STRONG in his prime. He would have worked his way inside and pummeled Ali.

BOXING has got to be the toughest sport. All that training leading up to 1 day. On that day you could be off...you could eat bad food, you could not sleep the night prior, etc.

One day your on...next day your off.~
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Old 09-05-2022, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
The problem with this thread is that the premise was both boxers in their primes, yet I'm seeing numerous responses about when Tyson lost to Holyfield/Buster/Lewis. He wasnt in his prime for any of those fights. His prime ended once Satan himself Don King got him to fire Rooney. His technique and training went straight into the gutter after that.

With Ali, it's a bit more complicated. His prime was undoubtedly before the draft suspension, yet most of his legendary fights were afterwards. The only fighter from his prime period that comes somewhat close to replicating Tyson would have been Liston, and we can all agree that Liston wasnt anywhere near the same fighter as Tyson.

I personally dont think the mind games would have worked on the prime Tyson, not with Cus D'Amato by his side. Cus knew Ali well, would have known all about the head games and prepared Tyson for them.
The young Tyson had tremendous stamina, and a criminally underrated defense. I think he would have been able to chase Ali around for 15 rounds, and since Ali was not a hard puncher, he would have zero chance of knocking Tyson out. I think Ali loses on decision.
Sincere question about Iron Mike for you and anyone else.

How do we evaluate a heavyweight who has a glaring omission from his resume.

- Never won a fight in which he was hurt, had to come from behind on the cards, or was a big underdog going in.

Maybe I am missing a few fights earlier in his career, but after age 25, who did he beat of any merit compared to losing to the other championship caliber heavyweights of his era? Is beating Tony Tucker at age 21 his marquee win? Other than Tucker about a month after being legally allowed to buy a beer, did he ever take a beating and still win?

I mean, if we are saying this guy is going to beat Ali, he will probably have to overcome some adversity, take a punch, win a tough fight, be counted out by pundits, etc. Did he ever do that?
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Old 09-05-2022, 06:14 PM
 
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Well, Ali still had a plan even after being punched in the face.
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Old 09-05-2022, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Sincere question about Iron Mike for you and anyone else.

How do we evaluate a heavyweight who has a glaring omission from his resume.

- Never won a fight in which he was hurt, had to come from behind on the cards, or was a big underdog going in.

Maybe I am missing a few fights earlier in his career, but after age 25, who did he beat of any merit compared to losing to the other championship caliber heavyweights of his era? Is beating Tony Tucker at age 21 his marquee win? Other than Tucker about a month after being legally allowed to buy a beer, did he ever take a beating and still win?

I mean, if we are saying this guy is going to beat Ali, he will probably have to overcome some adversity, take a punch, win a tough fight, be counted out by pundits, etc. Did he ever do that?
The lack of a signature rivalry like Ali Frazier or Leonard/Hagler/Hearns has always haunted any evaluation of Tyson. Rightly or wrongly, the viewing public prefers some sort of drama/obstacle in its sporting heroes. I personally don’t hold this against Tyson. He could only fight who was put in front of him, and let’s be honest, everyone was scared of young prime Tyson, Spinks is a prime example. And unlike say Mayweather, Tyson never ran from scheduling any opponent. None of the haggling crap that seemed to happen with Floyd way too often.
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Old 09-06-2022, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
The lack of a signature rivalry like Ali Frazier or Leonard/Hagler/Hearns has always haunted any evaluation of Tyson. Rightly or wrongly, the viewing public prefers some sort of drama/obstacle in its sporting heroes. I personally don’t hold this against Tyson. He could only fight who was put in front of him, and let’s be honest, everyone was scared of young prime Tyson, Spinks is a prime example. And unlike say Mayweather, Tyson never ran from scheduling any opponent. None of the haggling crap that seemed to happen with Floyd way too often.
It's fair to point out that Mike didn't get to face his generational rivals, Holyfield and Lewis, at age 21-25, but once he was past 30 and no longer the same fighter.

It's fair to point out he wasn't the same fighter because of horrible mismanagement from those who should have been preparing him for these bouts.

I think it's also fair to point out that when Holyfield and Lewis got their chances to fight Tyson, the results were pretty one-sided, well make that very one-sided. So, lots of "what-ifs" that Mike could have answered himself, but didn't. To me, that matters. Regardless of outside influences, Tyson had chances in his 2nd act to assert himself as the top heavyweight in the world again.......and it didn't come close to happening.

All that said, "best heavyweight ever at age 21-24" is a mantle he probably claims with ease, and put that age Tyson in the ring against anyone in history at any age and he would give them problems if not knock 'em out cold.
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Old 09-09-2022, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It's fair to point out that Mike didn't get to face his generational rivals, Holyfield and Lewis, at age 21-25, but once he was past 30 and no longer the same fighter.

It's fair to point out he wasn't the same fighter because of horrible mismanagement from those who should have been preparing him for these bouts.

I think it's also fair to point out that when Holyfield and Lewis got their chances to fight Tyson, the results were pretty one-sided, well make that very one-sided. So, lots of "what-ifs" that Mike could have answered himself, but didn't. To me, that matters. Regardless of outside influences, Tyson had chances in his 2nd act to assert himself as the top heavyweight in the world again.......and it didn't come close to happening.

All that said, "best heavyweight ever at age 21-24" is a mantle he probably claims with ease, and put that age Tyson in the ring against anyone in history at any age and he would give them problems if not knock 'em out cold.
One thing that has always intrigued me, and I had to actually look it up. I always assumed that the reason why Holyfield and Lewis didnt fight Tyson till much later on was because he was older than them. Turns out not to be the case. They are both older than him, although Holyfield started out as a light heavyweight. Granted, the politics between all the big promoters like Don King and Bob Arum probably played a part, but it would have been interesting to see if either of those guys has the same success against the 22 year old Tyson as opposed to the drugged out washed up imitation they both destroyed later on.
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Old 09-10-2022, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,999 posts, read 11,298,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
One thing that has always intrigued me, and I had to actually look it up. I always assumed that the reason why Holyfield and Lewis didnt fight Tyson till much later on was because he was older than them. Turns out not to be the case. They are both older than him, although Holyfield started out as a light heavyweight. Granted, the politics between all the big promoters like Don King and Bob Arum probably played a part, but it would have been interesting to see if either of those guys has the same success against the 22 year old Tyson as opposed to the drugged out washed up imitation they both destroyed later on.
Mike was heavyweight champion before Holyfield fought his first professional fight, I think. Holyfield is older overall as well. So, I have very little doubt a 22 year old heavyweight champion Tyson crushes the just turned pro light heavyweight Holyfield.

Holyfield has the specter of PEDs over him. Fair or not, I have to wonder if he even can fight as a heavyweight without that edge. Maybe Evander was really just a "late bloomer" IDK.

Not sure about Lewis, I followed his career less closely.
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