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Old 03-30-2008, 12:57 PM
 
13 posts, read 25,740 times
Reputation: 14

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
This is exactly the attitude that a lot of locals loathe. You are a slave to the market. Everything is about economics huh?.. Why can't you people see the simplicity of the way things could be? It doesn't have to be about money markets and stocks, but more about the quality of life. It's not right for people to move in to an area to inflate it's market. I'd rather be out for an early afternoon fishing with my son than checking my blackberry for stock moves and trying to think of ways to gouge other people to make more money.

I am so sick and tired of the "get on the right side of the money movement" mentality. What you say implies that people who have lived in an area for generations should accept it the way people like you see it, or move. I disagree.

Sure I've had to make changes in order to afford to stay put, but it's based on the influx of outsiders trying to make a quick buck. And it's a needless pain in the ass.

You people could have much more out of the area also! Instead you buy and sell and buy and sell and build and build and pass all of the debt onto the local consumer. I don't think you "get" what Montana really is.

Sad to say I don't think you ever will, but I am hopeful and wish for the best.
Pretty funny, but sad at the same time.

First, I *am* a local. Do you somehow have more rights than I?

Next, I would like you to explain your idealist concept of just ignoring the economics and having things "the way they could be". You make this empty assertion wthout explaining how, when growth in demand outpaces growth in supply, how you can have prices stay the same. What is your proposal? Would you like to see legislation to ensure that everyone has the exact same property and wealth regardless of what they produce? If not, and if you oppose captialism and free markets, what mechanism do you propose to handle the siution? Is money "evil" to you? It is a means of exchange... we could revert to barter and the horse and buggy --- ahh, how simple things could be.

Last, explain what you mean by "you people... buy and sell... and pass the debt onto the local consumer". I dont follow this at all. How does debt from building and selling homes get passed onto "the local consumer"?

Food for thought: If you have lived in Bozeman for a long time, your home is worth far more now (because of the "evil economics and demand" that has caused the price increase) than it was years ago. You, and anyone who has lived in Bozeman for year, has benefited immensely from the real estate boom here. Do you think that such people should have their home values taxed to help those who haven't owned for years or are just moving in now and can't afford to buy otherwise?
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
1,368 posts, read 6,152,100 times
Reputation: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
Pretty funny, but sad at the same time.

First, I *am* a local. Do you somehow have more rights than I?
Do you have more rights than him? Shut the ego crap.

Quote:
Next, I would like you to explain your idealist concept of just ignoring the economics and having things "the way they could be". You make this empty assertion wthout explaining how, when growth in demand outpaces growth in supply, how you can have prices stay the same.
Montana has never been about the money. Cost of living here has been low because its a community. Because people know everyone else, and they look out for their neighbors. Thats why Montana is great. As we see more and more people enter the area, we see that erode. The cost of housing and cost of living going up is only a symptom of the issue that people in montana have with us very capitalistic folks.


Quote:
What is your proposal? Would you like to see legislation to ensure that everyone has the exact same property and wealth regardless of what they produce?
Yeah, because thats EXACTLY what wolf posted. He wanted to create a purely socialistic system where no one gets screwed. No, he wants to ensure, as do many Montanans, that the people who have lived here their whole lives do not get screwed. What happens when an area imports more than it exports?
Quote:
If not, and if you oppose captialism and free markets, what mechanism do you propose to handle the siution? Is money "evil" to you? It is a means of exchange...
Its about the value of the dollar in Montana. The value was high, and as we see more and more people move here for the location, the atmosphere, etc... that value drops as they bring more and more money into the system. Its inflation, and its unnecessary, and because we bring these people in, who don't move to start new businesses, to attract college graduates, they come here... they take the existing high-end jobs, and they stifle our local economy with inflation. Having already amassed the money they need for property, they can now afford to live on the wages we all do.

But, now that average Engineer can't. That professor can't. That family that has saved for 15 years to buy a house... they can't.

Quote:
If you have lived in Bozeman for a long time, your home is worth far more now (because of the "evil economics and demand" that has caused the price increase) than it was years ago. You, and anyone who has lived in Bozeman for year, has benefited immensely from the real estate boom here.
By lived, you mean... owned a house right? Because, theres a large population that doesn't own property. What about those local kids? Its been said around the university, if you want to live in Bozeman, you need to move out first. And its true. You need to find somewhere that you can make the kind of money to bring it back with you, just to be able to survive.

The issue is that what is sometimes a symptom of growth, or a symptom of a problem, may be independent. Housing prices in Bozeman have been independent of: 1) Job availability. 2) Cost of Living. 3) Average wages.

Because people who don't care about the job availability, cost of living and average wages are heading here because, "Its the last great place". Now, I'm not proposing Montana close its borders, but what about a tax to out of state folks who want to buy property here? To me, that seems fair if we want to keep this place the way we love it. Safe, cheap and neighborly.
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,938,171 times
Reputation: 687
Thanks Radek, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

What I mean by all the building and debt associated with it getting passed on to the local consumer is reflected directly in the insane housing prices.

Who pays the price? The developers? The Realtors?
Nope, it's the working people and families that end up paying the inflated prices.

What I meant by how things could be, is how they were before this boom. Before people started moving in in mass and bringing their problems and crooked economics with them.

However, not all the new folks are like this, and it really is cool to live in a place where people from all over came with an idea of living in a better place with a better attitude.
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Old 04-14-2008, 04:15 AM
 
13 posts, read 25,740 times
Reputation: 14
I am clearly debating with people with little to no understanding of economics. I suggest you take an intro course or two, then return to discuss from an educated perspective. When you say things like "Montana has never been about the money", you are dismissing the notion that Montana, as well as every other place in the US, relies on the market system where supply and demand interact to set prices. Your alternative is socialism, communism, or a couple of other horrific choices... you might consider moving to another country if that sort of system appeals to you.

Let me correct a few of your inaccuracies. Cost of living has been lower in MT not because it is a community (which is absurd - communities are everywhere), but because the supply/demand interaction has resulted in lower equilibrium. In layman's terms, it is because MT is less developed and vibrant economically than other parts of the country. Are you aware that without federal tax support (ie, involuntary redistribution of wealth from non-Montana citizens), Montana would be extremely in the red? In other words, it's economy is weak... that is why cost of living is lower. Bozeman is a particular pocket where growth and the economy is good, so it is both in the black and more expensive. Again, if you wanted to have prices lower, all you have to do is kill off demand and the local economy and that is precisely what you'd get. Do things to discourage people from moving here and boosting the economy and things will retract. To otherwise artificially set prices low, you get what is known as a "price cieling", resulting in a shortage. Remember gas lines in the 70s, thanks to Jimmy Carter?

Your statements about trade balance also display your ignorance. Free trade is a good thing, and if you understand economics, you'd know that the export/import balance is *not* an inherently bad thing when uneven. If Bozeman produces technology more efficiently than China and China produces manufactured goods more efficiently than Bozeman, the trade is a good thing because you allocate resources most efficiently.

I suggest you take some time and think about your values and educate yourself. You need to realize that not everyone is entitled to the same thing, because the cost of "leveling" is that everyone has much less (because you eliminate the incentive to work more, produce more, profit more). If I work twice as much as you and bought a home in Bozeman in the 80s and have seen my home value skyrocket because of the booming economy here, I am perfectly entitled to it. I'm thrilled that the price of my home is up. Those who choose not to buy may indeed have to move to a location where the economy isnt as robust (cost of living is lower)... thats the way things work. Nothing says that you are entitled to magically own a home when you turn 22... most people have to work hard to afford one. If my son works hard now, maybe he can buy a home here in a few years (at the "ridiculous" prices - as you call them - despite being below the national average), and then see it double or triple in value as the economy thrives. The beat goes on, my friend... stay competitive.

PS> You should be happy about the fact the country is moving towards recession and the housing market has been deflating... both things result in massive loss of wealth for those who own, but make things more affordable for those who dont. Also, the unemployment rate is near historical lows (near its static level that cant be improved much), so you certainly have a nice combo for yourself.
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Old 04-14-2008, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 38,452,371 times
Reputation: 2147483647
If this continues I'm going to shut down the thread. Stop the name calling.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,938,171 times
Reputation: 687
Default changes in lattitudes changes in attitudes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
I am clearly debating with people with little to no understanding of economics. I suggest you take an intro course or two, then return to discuss from an educated perspective. When you say things like "Montana has never been about the money", you are dismissing the notion that Montana, as well as every other place in the US, relies on the market system where supply and demand interact to set prices. Your alternative is socialism, communism, or a couple of other horrific choices... you might consider moving to another country if that sort of system appeals to you.
I'm all for being compensated for what a person produces.
I produce what I can, and live by doing honest work, for honest pay. Though what I do is technical in nature, it's no less important in the community than something someone does to sell property, product or anything else. Could I move and make double the money? Sure, but family and quality of life are very important to us, and we've made it through harder times than this.

Montana is going through some growing pains because it's market has changed significantly over the past 10-15 years. A change in cost of living to me and lots of other people who have lived here a long time is difficult, but no less than it is on anyone else who works for an honest days wages. Was I an economics major in college? obviously not, but I do the best I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
Let me correct a few of your inaccuracies. Cost of living has been lower in MT not because it is a community (which is absurd - communities are everywhere), but because the supply/demand interaction has resulted in lower equilibrium. In layman's terms, it is because MT is less developed and vibrant economically than other parts of the country. Are you aware that without federal tax support (ie, involuntary redistribution of wealth from non-Montana citizens), Montana would be extremely in the red? In other words, it's economy is weak... that is why cost of living is lower. Bozeman is a particular pocket where growth and the economy is good, so it is both in the black and more expensive. Again, if you wanted to have prices lower, all you have to do is kill off demand and the local economy and that is precisely what you'd get. Do things to discourage people from moving here and boosting the economy and things will retract. To otherwise artificially set prices low, you get what is known as a "price cieling", resulting in a shortage. Remember gas lines in the 70s, thanks to Jimmy Carter?
What Radek was saying is that people in Montana are more inclined to help each other out. SoCal, NYC and Chicago are communities also, but most people don't really even know their own neighbors in communities of that scale. It's nice to be somewhere where people help each other out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
Your statements about trade balance also display your ignorance. Free trade is a good thing, and if you understand economics, you'd know that the export/import balance is *not* an inherently bad thing when uneven. If Bozeman produces technology more efficiently than China and China produces manufactured goods more efficiently than Bozeman, the trade is a good thing because you allocate resources most efficiently.

I suggest you take some time and think about your values and educate yourself. You need to realize that not everyone is entitled to the same thing, because the cost of "leveling" is that everyone has much less (because you eliminate the incentive to work more, produce more, profit more). If I work twice as much as you and bought a home in Bozeman in the 80s and have seen my home value skyrocket because of the booming economy here, I am perfectly entitled to it. I'm thrilled that the price of my home is up. Those who choose not to buy may indeed have to move to a location where the economy isnt as robust (cost of living is lower)... thats the way things work. Nothing says that you are entitled to magically own a home when you turn 22... most people have to work hard to afford one. If my son works hard now, maybe he can buy a home here in a few years (at the "ridiculous" prices - as you call them - despite being below the national average), and then see it double or triple in value as the economy thrives. The beat goes on, my friend... stay competitive.
I still say housing costs are ridiculous in Bozeman. It's gone up too much in too short a time, and some people, especially in real estate have done some awful things to make money. (Messing with pricing on a property they own in MLS listings etc... to drive up offers on other properties. There is a pretty good thread on the forum about this.) It's just changed too much, too fast and made it difficult for those that have called Gallatin County home for a long time. Like I said before, I'm obviously not an economics major, but I and plenty of other people do work very hard at what we do and also deserve to own our own homes and land without having to starve to make the payments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
PS> You should be happy about the fact the country is moving towards recession and the housing market has been deflating... both things result in massive loss of wealth for those who own, but make things more affordable for those who dont. Also, the unemployment rate is near historical lows (near its static level that cant be improved much), so you certainly have a nice combo for yourself.
I don't wish for any honest person to lose wealth, either in their homes equity or any other source, but it is nice to see housing start to come down to a level where good, honest, hardworking people might have a chance at home and land ownership again. (I already own my home, so it's a loss for me, but these things seem to go up and down over and over again...=-)
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:59 PM
 
5 posts, read 23,473 times
Reputation: 11
Default We're talking about different things ...

Zeeburt:
"If I work twice as much as you and bought a home in Bozeman in the 80s and have seen my home value skyrocket because of the booming economy here, I am perfectly entitled to it. I'm thrilled that the price of my home is up. Those who choose not to buy may indeed have to move to a location where the economy isnt as robust (cost of living is lower)... thats the way things work. Nothing says that you are entitled to magically own a home when you turn 22... most people have to work hard to afford one."

I don't think anyone here is ignorant of supply and demand or how the economics of home pricing works. Intellectual discussions about economics just aren't effective when talking to real people who are affected by an economic problem.

In Montana our biggest economic problem is (and has been) our low wages. The cost of housing here is "ridiculous" because wages are so low; while our prices might be close to the national average, our wages certainly aren't. Businesses are coming to Bozeman, but many of our new jobs are in the retail sector and are typically low-paying. Many higher paying management jobs are imported, and there just aren't enough of the right kinds of jobs to support home ownership for the average Bozemanite. Of course, as growth occurs, higher-paying jobs will likely follow. All this makes little difference when we're talking about the experiences of real people who "work hard" but still can't make ends meet in a place they dearly love.

Any discussion that implies someone is "working harder" than someone else will be naturally counter-productive. A construction worker or farmer works very, very hard, but this is not the "working twice as hard" you are probably thinking of. I find that often when people talk about "working harder" they are talking about focusing on gaining wealth. While this does boost our economic potential, it has more to do with our values than the amount of work we're actually doing.

My husband and I are both teachers because public service is where our values lie. We are not interested in gaining wealth but we do "work hard" and as life-long Montana residents we would like to be able to own our own home one day. I'm thrilled that the value of your home has gone up, just as I'm thrilled for my own parents who have owned land here for many years. I'm also keenly aware of the struggle that has barred many other "hard workers" from what they most desire, and from what was within reach for many until a few years ago.

I think a little compassion is in order.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:36 AM
 
72 posts, read 234,612 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
I am clearly debating with people with little to no understanding of economics. I suggest you take an intro course or two, then return to discuss from an educated perspective. Your alternative is socialism, communism, or a couple of other horrific choices... you might consider moving to another country if that sort of system appeals to you.

Let me correct a few of your inaccuracies.
Your statements about trade balance also display your ignorance.
I suggest you take some time and think about your values and educate yourself.
I can see you share a similar economic philosophy as the current administration who has done such a great job with our nation. Your interpretation of an educated economic philosophy leads to a degraded system such as what we have happening in our country now. Survival of the fittest is great in nature. With humans it's different. If we don't take care of our nation and our people we will just be another third world country which is exactly what you and the neoliberals, previously know as neoconservatives, are doing now. Your labeling people socialists and communists is an old tactic which is ineffective. Anytime anyone spends anything on a social project for society it is socialism. You probably have supported some public projects correct? Therefore you are also a socialist. Many countries, such as ours, have elements of both socialism and capitalism. The most successful nations find a balance between the two. They take the best of capitalism and socialism. That is the challenge for our country and Montana as well. Having 100% of one system is a recipe for failure. We don't need 100% socialism or 100% capitalism, we need to take the pieces of both that work best. Elkhunter please don't shut down this thread. We can all have a civil discussion about this.
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