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Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,095,590 times
Reputation: 15538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz
Haha, right? It's a strange world we live in.
Having just actually read the article, it's ugly but not unexpected. I've never been a big fan of the populace of Buffalo as a whole, and most of what I read and experience only reinforces my long-held opinions. City of Good Neighbors is a rather hilarious nickname. Friend of mine's longtime GF is an engineer at Tesla; I'll now be curious to ask about her experiences (which from what I've heard seem quite good, but she's probably in a different world as an engineer)
I think a lot of it may be where a facility is located, recently I have been reading on one of the NY Boards how works are unhappy with Amazon, their policies and expectations at work. We have multiple Amazon Fulfillment Facilities and you never see any negative press on them, in fact they are hiring more with full benefits and a decent wage.
Maybe location really does have an effect on whether an industry is able to succeed...
So, this may be as much, if not more about the environment at Tesla, than pinning this on being a Buffalo issue(like racism is exclusive to the area).
This isn’t new at car factories(mom worked at a Chrysler plant and was a union secretary), like this example the OP is likely familiar with, along with others mentioned in the Slate article: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...e34404513.html
So, this is a microcosm of a larger issue.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 12-03-2019 at 05:42 AM..
I think a lot of it may be where a facility is located, recently I have been reading on one of the NY Boards how works are unhappy with Amazon, their policies and expectations at work. We have multiple Amazon Fulfillment Facilities and you never see any negative press on them, in fact they are hiring more with full benefits and a decent wage.
Maybe location really does have an effect on whether an industry is able to succeed...
You mean the specific kinda-desolate South Park Ave 'Riverbend' location of this Tesla facility? I don't know how much of a factor that might be. If they'd picked say Getzville instead, perhaps worker demographics would be different, but I can't imagine that would suddenly solve all race relation issues. There were racially based quotas associated with the construction of the facility; not sure if there were for hiring for employment there, but. In addition to knowing a current worker there, my friend's father was also employed there until he became one of the January layoffs mentioned, and I heard a bit about the place being toxic during that time, but said friend also claimed that the facility was more 'productive' than other Tesla plants around the country, a claim that doesn't seem to be supported by this article just given the mentions of people standing around/lacking work while on the clock/etc. But I'd have to research it further (if such information is even findable/publicly available)
So, this may be as much, if not more about the environment at Tesla, than pinning this on being a Buffalo issue(like racism is exclusive to the area).
Elon Musk is from South Africa after all; clearly the effort is being made to instill an apartheid-era South Africa feel at these facilities...
Joking. One can of course wonder what percentage of blue-collar/any-collar work environments are actually free from racial disharmony and other issues regarding discrimination....
ETA: That Slate article portrays Tesla pretty terribly. The last paragraph about Musk's response screams apathy on his part
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,095,590 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz
You mean the specific kinda-desolate South Park Ave 'Riverbend' location of this Tesla facility? I don't know how much of a factor that might be. If they'd picked say Getzville instead, perhaps worker demographics would be different, but I can't imagine that would suddenly solve all race relation issues. There were racially based quotas associated with the construction of the facility; not sure if there were for hiring for employment there, but. In addition to knowing a current worker there, my friend's father was also employed there until he became one of the January layoffs mentioned, and I heard a bit about the place being toxic during that time, but said friend also claimed that the facility was more 'productive' than other Tesla plants around the country, a claim that doesn't seem to be supported by this article just given the mentions of people standing around/lacking work while on the clock/etc. But I'd have to research it further (if such information is even findable/publicly available)
I didn't mean the plants physical address so much as the hosting location, could the employees mindset me more of a factor. It often seems that those workers who's background includes heavy unionized positions are more trigger happy for lack of a better phrase to have objections about the way a company is treating them? Just an observation more than a statistical fact but this seems more prevalent in many locations.
I didn't mean the plants physical address so much as the hosting location, could the employees mindset me more of a factor. It often seems that those workers who's background includes heavy unionized positions are more trigger happy for lack of a better phrase to have objections about the way a company is treating them? Just an observation more than a statistical fact but this seems more prevalent in many locations.
A better phrase is that they feel they have a right to stand up to discrimination, and be treated as a real human being, rather than be treated just as a disposable capital expenditure.
I didn't mean the plants physical address so much as the hosting location, could the employees mindset me more of a factor. It often seems that those workers who's background includes heavy unionized positions are more trigger happy for lack of a better phrase to have objections about the way a company is treating them? Just an observation more than a statistical fact but this seems more prevalent in many locations.
Having worked in manufacturing for 20+ years in three states, in plants both massive and small, my experience has been only the most die hard of union types, people who were probably a pain to deal with in whatever union shop they were laid off from, tend to be a problem. They tend to be white, middle-aged, and come across as having an axe to grind, blaming all manner of things they and nobody else really has any control over for their having lost their well-paying union gig. They tend to "stick together", and usually comprise a very small sub-set within a plant.
Considering the attention the plant's issues have gotten in the media, I'd venture to guess this Tesla plant is mismanaged and rudderless.
There seem to be a lot of problems at that plant, way beyond anything considered mere teething problems for a massive, new facility. These issues will make it exceedingly difficult for them to attract any new workers.
My opinion regarding location is they could have put it in Anywhere, America, and they would have virtually the same results. I've seen it, Mack Truck opened up a plant north of Columbia, SC, some years ago and it closed down two years later. Management were so abusive and vicious, that within one year of the plant opening workers were calling for a union vote. Mack closed the plant due to "union activity", and ironically shifted the work to their union plants. I worked for one of the idiots who had been a manager there when we first moved to SC, at a plant in Lexington, SC, so I saw first-hand what awful management can do to a workforce in corporate America.
The one thing I think that could save the Riverbend project in Buffalo is Tesla just selling it off to a more capable company, cut their losses, pay the fines to the state, whatever. I'd just hate to see it die a slow death and close. Nobody is going to want to work there if there's a perception in the community that they'll be abused and what have you, on the job. Otherwise, Tesla is dealing with a situation which will result in a union at that plant, and by then they'll want to bail out on the project because Tesla does not have unions in their facilities in the U.S., far as I can tell.
There's almost a script to these schemes on the part of large corporations:
1. Put hands out to the government for tax write-offs and incentives, usually in a "distressed community/area" which is "desperate for good jobs".
2. Make shady deals with local and state politicians, regulators, developers, etc.
3. Build, then open and start hiring people.
4. Rush to production, stressing everyone in the organization to "accomplish the mission".
5. Abuses start happening, highly-paid managers have a lot at stake, probably live well beyond their means, etc. So they come down hard because they know people under them have zero work protections.
6. Union activity starts, possible bad press hit the media about worker abuses.
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,095,590 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardRoarke
Having worked in manufacturing for 20+ years in three states, in plants both massive and small, my experience has been only the most die hard of union types, people who were probably a pain to deal with in whatever union shop they were laid off from, tend to be a problem. They tend to be white, middle-aged, and come across as having an axe to grind, blaming all manner of things they and nobody else really has any control over for their having lost their well-paying union gig. They tend to "stick together", and usually comprise a very small sub-set within a plant.
Considering the attention the plant's issues have gotten in the media, I'd venture to guess this Tesla plant is mismanaged and rudderless.
There seem to be a lot of problems at that plant, way beyond anything considered mere teething problems for a massive, new facility. These issues will make it exceedingly difficult for them to attract any new workers.
My opinion regarding location is they could have put it in Anywhere, America, and they would have virtually the same results. I've seen it, Mack Truck opened up a plant north of Columbia, SC, some years ago and it closed down two years later. Management were so abusive and vicious, that within one year of the plant opening workers were calling for a union vote. Mack closed the plant due to "union activity", and ironically shifted the work to their union plants. I worked for one of the idiots who had been a manager there when we first moved to SC, at a plant in Lexington, SC, so I saw first-hand what awful management can do to a workforce in corporate America.
The one thing I think that could save the Riverbend project in Buffalo is Tesla just selling it off to a more capable company, cut their losses, pay the fines to the state, whatever. I'd just hate to see it die a slow death and close. Nobody is going to want to work there if there's a perception in the community that they'll be abused and what have you, on the job. Otherwise, Tesla is dealing with a situation which will result in a union at that plant, and by then they'll want to bail out on the project because Tesla does not have unions in their facilities in the U.S., far as I can tell.
There's almost a script to these schemes on the part of large corporations:
1. Put hands out to the government for tax write-offs and incentives, usually in a "distressed community/area" which is "desperate for good jobs".
2. Make shady deals with local and state politicians, regulators, developers, etc.
3. Build, then open and start hiring people.
4. Rush to production, stressing everyone in the organization to "accomplish the mission".
5. Abuses start happening, highly-paid managers have a lot at stake, probably live well beyond their means, etc. So they come down hard because they know people under them have zero work protections.
6. Union activity starts, possible bad press hit the media about worker abuses.
Having worked in manufacturing for 20+ years in three states, in plants both massive and small, my experience has been only the most die hard of union types, people who were probably a pain to deal with in whatever union shop they were laid off from, tend to be a problem. They tend to be white, middle-aged, and come across as having an axe to grind, blaming all manner of things they and nobody else really has any control over for their having lost their well-paying union gig. They tend to "stick together", and usually comprise a very small sub-set within a plant.
Considering the attention the plant's issues have gotten in the media, I'd venture to guess this Tesla plant is mismanaged and rudderless.
There seem to be a lot of problems at that plant, way beyond anything considered mere teething problems for a massive, new facility. These issues will make it exceedingly difficult for them to attract any new workers.
My opinion regarding location is they could have put it in Anywhere, America, and they would have virtually the same results. I've seen it, Mack Truck opened up a plant north of Columbia, SC, some years ago and it closed down two years later. Management were so abusive and vicious, that within one year of the plant opening workers were calling for a union vote. Mack closed the plant due to "union activity", and ironically shifted the work to their union plants. I worked for one of the idiots who had been a manager there when we first moved to SC, at a plant in Lexington, SC, so I saw first-hand what awful management can do to a workforce in corporate America.
The one thing I think that could save the Riverbend project in Buffalo is Tesla just selling it off to a more capable company, cut their losses, pay the fines to the state, whatever. I'd just hate to see it die a slow death and close. Nobody is going to want to work there if there's a perception in the community that they'll be abused and what have you, on the job. Otherwise, Tesla is dealing with a situation which will result in a union at that plant, and by then they'll want to bail out on the project because Tesla does not have unions in their facilities in the U.S., far as I can tell.
There's almost a script to these schemes on the part of large corporations:
1. Put hands out to the government for tax write-offs and incentives, usually in a "distressed community/area" which is "desperate for good jobs".
2. Make shady deals with local and state politicians, regulators, developers, etc.
3. Build, then open and start hiring people.
4. Rush to production, stressing everyone in the organization to "accomplish the mission".
5. Abuses start happening, highly-paid managers have a lot at stake, probably live well beyond their means, etc. So they come down hard because they know people under them have zero work protections.
6. Union activity starts, possible bad press hit the media about worker abuses.
7. Etc.
Good observations.
Elon Musk promotes a culture of long hours, mandatory overtime, sub-par base pay, and favoritism at his companies Tesla and SpaceX. Musk's personal superstar status (and free yogurt) convince many employees that this is the place to be, but there can be a lot of tension in the workplace, especially as senior employees see little change from the "start up" culture over time. Maybe the experiences at the Tesla auto plant were a leaning opportunity that can improve working conditions long term. I don't have any insight if that is true, however.
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