Is WFG a pyramid scheme, a cult, or a legit business? (agents, corporations)

[cdelena]

Originally Posted by Bourney

Just because you're a member of the upper class doesn't necessarily mean that you have to spend like they do. Most millionaires don't drive Mercedes and Jaguars precisely because they'd rather hold more cash in the form of savings which can be put towards investments.

People tend to live the same way as they did before retirement if they can. Almost 20% of US households have incomes in excess of $100K a year resulting in a lifestyle that on average is comfortable.

[TimtheGuy]

Originally Posted by cdelena

People tend to live the same way as they did before retirement if they can. Almost 20% of US households have incomes in excess of $100K a year resulting in a lifestyle that on average is comfortable.

So the average person EARNS FAR LESS THAN $100K/YR. and would therefore not need near the money you are talking about to live the same way they always have.

[magellan]

I think all the WFG hacks like rondo have left. They apparently figured out we're not a bunch of brainless dolts around here to buy into their schemes.

As Bourney said, you don't get rich by consuming more, but that's the crux behind these Amway type MLM organizations. If you consume enough soap, insurance products and videotapes telling you how great you are, you will be rich.

[cdelena]

Originally Posted by TimtheGuy

So the average person EARNS FAR LESS THAN $100K/YR. and would therefore not need near the money you are talking about to live the same way they always have.

Income varies greatly depending upon age, education, location, etc. Yes, the median income for a household is about $48K so an estimate to maintain that level 25 years from now is a bit more than $125K a year.

I think the numbers thrown around were just examples and not relevant to the discussion of WFG and the like.

[sunsprit]

cdelena ... I think you're the one missing the point. IF a family is living now on an income of $48,000/year during their prime earnings years ... then their retirement years will be during a time when the mortgage has been paid off (the biggest single expense for most of them now) and a lot of the buying/acquisition phases of their lives has passed. If they didn't buy a house, then they'll still be renting/leasing ... and it needn't be the same bigger place they had when raising a family; they can "economize" and live within their means during retirement. In fact, they might even be freed up to be traveling (RV'ing) during their retirement ... for a very low cost and a lot of fun for the adventure to be had.

The ludicrous numbers tossed out on this thread ... including yours of $90K/year just for expenses ... represent an incredibly lavish lifestyle of exceptional expense. Most of us ... a dream as it may be ... would have difficult time living the "lifestyle of the rich and famous" for more than a few days. Once you're acclimated to that level of expense on a daily basis, everything becomes ordinary again ... but the reality is that one can have as much enjoyment and pleasure in life by drinking the less expensive wines, consuming good quality/tasting food, driving the commonplace car, having prints instead of original high dollar artist's oil paintings on the wall, a modest house with modern conveniences, and so forth.

I know I don't need a 10,000 sq ft house on the golf course for my retirement enjoyment. It's just a big maintenance expense headache, and a monster to keep clean. Why would I even want to have that type of burden in "retirement"?

I know for a fact that the fish can't tell that I'm in a 15' wooden dory instead of that 90' flybridge twin dieseled sportfisherman .... or that I've got an old Penn reel instead of some titanium custom made job. In fact ... I'd bet the guy in that other boat has no more fun catching fish than I do. He just has a couple million dollar luxury environment to do it from ... and I'm not impressed or jealous. We're both out on the water enjoying life, only I get to do it for a lot more fun per dollar than he ever will.

As I pointed out, I could live in Vail or Aspen CO for a lot less than $90K/year right now ... and be quite spoiled. I know how to accomplish that in a lot of other high dollar areas in the country, too ... where it takes as much as $2,000/month just for leased housing. It simply doesn't add up to $7,500/month until you're just throwing a lot of money around to impress.

FWIW, I have family/friends in Clyde Hill, Medina, Bellevue, Renton, Queen Anne Hill, and other similar places in WA. I've bicycled those neighborhoods and checked out the housing and prices ... and I wouldn't live in any of them, because there's simply no need for me to spend that kind of dough for a prestige address. I've seen the little old Clyde Hill wood frame bungalow stuck back in the trees on a small lot ... built a long time ago, outdated and functionally worn out in many respects ... with a 7 figure price asked and trading these days; oh, and that was the house with no view due to the site. IMO, those neighborhoods aren't worth the price of their location and views of the lake ... they're still stuck with high traffic density going West into Seattle or up to mSoft or wherever ..... Even the waterfront houses on the lake with a private dock still can't justify (for me) the price of ownership or the costs of taxes and maintenance in a retirement situation.

I've also toured commercial/residential neighborhoods in the Tacoma area which had comparable houses for much more realistic money. That would be more suitable for my budget, and would still allow me to keep a boat at a marina for my daily escape to the water/fishing/just messing around in boats .... and I still wouldn't need $7,500/month to have that lifestyle. Maybe a little bit bigger boat ... a 25-30 foot sailboat that I could still handle myself, but nothing so big as to be a burden to handle & maintain or a PITA in the off-season (hey, those boats are cheap! price out a Catalina 25 or 27 up that way ... folks spend a lot more just for the downpayment on their cars!).

[Bourney]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

cdelena ... I think you're the one missing the point. IF a family is living now on an income of $48,000/year during their prime earnings years ... then their retirement years will be during a time when the mortgage has been paid off (the biggest single expense for most of them now) and a lot of the buying/acquisition phases of their lives has passed. If they didn't buy a house, then they'll still be renting/leasing ... and it needn't be the same bigger place they had when raising a family; they can "economize" and live within their means during retirement. In fact, they might even be freed up to be traveling (RV'ing) during their retirement ... for a very low cost and a lot of fun for the adventure to be had.

The ludicrous numbers tossed out on this thread ... including yours of $90K/year just for expenses ... represent an incredibly lavish lifestyle of exceptional expense. Most of us ... a dream as it may be ... would have difficult time living the "lifestyle of the rich and famous" for more than a few days. Once you're acclimated to that level of expense on a daily basis, everything becomes ordinary again ... but the reality is that one can have as much enjoyment and pleasure in life by drinking the less expensive wines, consuming good quality/tasting food, driving the commonplace car, having prints instead of original high dollar artist's oil paintings on the wall, a modest house with modern conveniences, and so forth.

I know I don't need a 10,000 sq ft house on the golf course for my retirement enjoyment. It's just a big maintenance expense headache, and a monster to keep clean. Why would I even want to have that type of burden in "retirement"?

I know for a fact that the fish can't tell that I'm in a 15' wooden dory instead of that 90' flybridge twin dieseled sportfisherman .... or that I've got an old Penn reel instead of some titanium custom made job. In fact ... I'd bet the guy in that other boat has no more fun catching fish than I do. He just has a couple million dollar luxury environment to do it from ... and I'm not impressed or jealous. We're both out on the water enjoying life, only I get to do it for a lot more fun per dollar than he ever will.

As I pointed out, I could live in Vail or Aspen CO for a lot less than $90K/year right now ... and be quite spoiled. I know how to accomplish that in a lot of other high dollar areas in the country, too ... where it takes as much as $2,000/month just for leased housing. It simply doesn't add up to $7,500/month until you're just throwing a lot of money around to impress.

FWIW, I have family/friends in Clyde Hill, Medina, Bellevue, Renton, Queen Anne Hill, and other similar places in WA. I've bicycled those neighborhoods and checked out the housing and prices ... and I wouldn't live in any of them, because there's simply no need for me to spend that kind of dough for a prestige address. I've seen the little old Clyde Hill wood frame bungalow stuck back in the trees on a small lot ... built a long time ago, outdated and functionally worn out in many respects ... with a 7 figure price asked and trading these days; oh, and that was the house with no view due to the site. IMO, those neighborhoods aren't worth the price of their location and views of the lake ... they're still stuck with high traffic density going West into Seattle or up to mSoft or wherever ..... Even the waterfront houses on the lake with a private dock still can't justify (for me) the price of ownership or the costs of taxes and maintenance in a retirement situation.

I've also toured commercial/residential neighborhoods in the Tacoma area which had comparable houses for much more realistic money. That would be more suitable for my budget, and would still allow me to keep a boat at a marina for my daily escape to the water/fishing/just messing around in boats .... and I still wouldn't need $7,500/month to have that lifestyle. Maybe a little bit bigger boat ... a 25-30 foot sailboat that I could still handle myself, but nothing so big as to be a burden to handle & maintain or a PITA in the off-season (hey, those boats are cheap! price out a Catalina 25 or 27 up that way ... folks spend a lot more just for the downpayment on their cars!).

Thank you for clarifying my point. I'm glad that someone else in this forum besides me has a college/university education.

[Bourney]

Originally Posted by WFGTommy

...you guys arent worth my time enjoy your pathetic jobs and lives while the rest of us at WFG make you all cry see you at the top...

ill just end with, our company has been around for 150 years and is worth 414 billion dollars... so get over yourselves. 2 we are sponsoring the PAC-10 on FSN if it was a pyramid SCHEME it woulndt have national advertising... gl to all of you... just because you people cant understand something doesnt make it bad...

Just a side note, just because some corporation advertises worldwide doesn't means that it works ethically and abides by moral principles. Take Enron or the current Mattel scandal, they advertise(d) everywhere, but Enron ended up bankrupt for defrauding shareholders, and Mattel might end up with huge lawsuits. A company which spends more on advertising means that it has less to spend on the finished product, that's why Google's initial reliance on word-of-mouth marketing worked so well, because they knew that a good product would be it's own best marketer.

So you're worth 414 billion dollars, but let's not forget that you're one huge conglomerate which comprises of hundreds, maybe even thousands of companies, meaning that WFG is only a small negligible part. Read the above note concerning the legacy (length of time) that a company has survived

[Bourney]

Originally Posted by WFGTommy

Ok lets put this to bed already shall we....
I am in WFG and I have been for almost 2 years now, my whole family is in WFG and are making substantial incomes. My sister in fact is hitting her 250,000 ring and she has only been in the WFG business opportunity for 4 years. A scam... give me a break. Who the hell are you guys to think this is a scam? How wealthy are any of you seriously... how educated are any of you seriously... Aegon has been around fr over 150 years and is worth over 400 BILLION dollars look it up on Forbes.com if you dont know what Forbes magazine is... dont bother even typing and trying to sound like a genius.

Lastly I would like to end with asking a question to all you self proclaimed "experts" WFG has marketing alliances with 100's of companies that im sure all of you have heard of... companies like Prudencial, Pacific Life, Western Reserve Life, Transamerica and the list goes on...I think they did their homework on WFG before you braniacs did your 5 mins of BS research on the internet... so for all of you guys that put a negative spin on WFG before even looking at it shame on you and good luck to you... we dont need people like you... I wish your buddy Brandon luck and if i were you i would call him apologize and take a look at it before you lose your chance

My understanding of it is that the "250,000 ring" is in actuality a mere sales ring, meaning that most of it is subject to commission, let's do the math, 250,000/4yrs, is 62,500, now let's not forget about how much they get to take home in commission, if she managed to get on to the second base of the pyramid (considering the fact that few people are lured into this scheme), her commission rate would be 37.5%, meaning that her yearly income would've been 23,437.50 or even if she managed to get on to the 3rd base of the scheme with commission at 50% if I recall correctly, she would've been able to take home a paltry 31,250, now the average college/university grad makes a starting salary of $45,000 depending upon the program. So really it took 4 years for your sister to make 70% of what a college grad who spent the same amount of time took, and they have a way brighter future. Now in the U. S., the minimum wage was around $5.05 U. S. times 40 hrs per week times 52 weeks in the year which is $10,504, so really you're sister was making around $12/hr, you realize most people make more working as a lifeguard?

[TimtheGuy]

Originally Posted by Bourney

Just a side note, just because some corporation advertises worldwide doesn't means that it works ethically and abides by moral principles. Take Enron or the current Mattel scandal, they advertise(d) everywhere, but Enron ended up bankrupt for defrauding shareholders, and Mattel might end up with huge lawsuits. A company which spends more on advertising means that it has less to spend on the finished product, that's why Google's initial reliance on word-of-mouth marketing worked so well, because they knew that a good product would be it's own best marketer.

Let's add the now defunct scum-bag Ameriquest Mortgage who was the top sponsor of the superbowl a few years back.

[caseRus]

Originally Posted by giveitachance

I am a current WFG member, however I am not active at the moment. So I totally understand where both sides are coming from.

When I first joined I was totally excited that I was going to be rich and that everything was going to come easily. But with any business you have to work at it. All my time was taken up my WFG meetings, conventions etc...but nothing was at all mandotory. I just wanted to be accepted by the others, especially the ones that we making alot of money lol.

I put alot into test fees (which is compeletly understandable and clear to me....I work at a bank and they are subject to the same fees) conventions and other lil stuff. It really began to put a damper into my funds. But the attitude that alot of the WFG associates had was "you can do it" everything was "you can do it". If I had to work on a day of a convention "just call off, you can do it" lol. It really started to get annoying.

See I can totally see how some people think that WFG is a cult. Because alot of the people at attend those meetings start to get a little weird and kinda crazy. Some people were just to intense for me. They would really act as if the world was spilt in two: there was us and them.

I still will continue with my WFG career and move forward but I hate that normal regular associates get put into the "pushy catergory" lol. I truly do want to help people and also get paid while doing it. I sometimes wish that there was a way to get people to see that WFG is a awesome company that does need some work (in my own personal opinon) and get WFG associates to realize that they don't/shouldn't be so damn weird and pushy.

All in all you can't hate the fact that WFG associates are looking for a different outlet other than their dead end jobs to become financially independent. I hope this helps someone.

Here is the problem with companies like WFG. you have regular financial institute like Solomon Barney, Goldman Sach, Merrill Lynch.... who hire people with financial backgrounds (with advance degrees) and/or a whole lot of financial training. yes of course they work for commission but that is where the similarities b/t these institutions and WFG ends.
you see the problem WFG is not the pyramid scheme, that obvious. It's how they try to recruit investors(people to invest in their company).
Picure this: would you want to invest your HARD HARD HARD earned income in a company that allow their "associates" to hassle the crap out of you to invest with them? Let me answer that question for you cause i know you're thinking it, HELLL NO!!!!!!
thats the problem with WFG. if they could be a little subtle in their business practice where their "associates" would relax, it would be so bad.but they have they associates tell their friends and family about this exciting invstment opportunities that offer large return on "yo dolla" (on purpose). right, but if that's the case, they would have soooo many people knocking down their doors to become customers, so what's the secret? Why would this company that offers this large return on "yo dolla" want to hire people off the streets and train them to become hasslers, if it was sooo goooood.

i'm only telling you this because i have a good friend(who fortunately have'nt turned his back on me) who is in this business and this friend i trust so when he gave me the scoop on WFG and encouraged me to invest with them because of this big fat return "yo dolla", at first it did sound good and i said yes, sign me up. then i thought hmm too good to be true and asked, tell me alittle more about this company? THAT'S WHEN THE TRUTH CAME OUT about the PYRAMID SCHEME. yeah i was dissapointed about this and how he could have been suck into it.

I thought to myself, hmmm when was the last time a financial advisor' came up to and tried to recruit me to invest in his company job just so he can have bread on his table to feed his family? Hmmm NEVER!!!
i can see if you were selling products or gadgets like toys, perfume, and other trinklets but my hard earned money???? No way!!!!!

let me tell you, if i want to invest money into a company, i will walk into that company after doing a thorough research. if I had a friend that wanted to talk to me about investing in the investment co. he works for, trust me , it will be voluntary not a part of his job in order to feed his family .

the bottom line is this: the company should promote itself, not recruit people to do it for them. ask yourself when was the last time you have seen a commerical or an ad for solomon barney, merrill lynch, charles schwab on a regular peak period? probably more so than never cuz i know i have.
then ask yourself when was the last time you have seen a commercial for wfg on a regular day during peak period? I can't say i did.

if they were that good they would'nt need people to recruit people to invest with them them, the products would speak for themselves and people will come to it.