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Not sure if this is the right subforum for this, but anyhow I have a question regarding alcohol sales.
Can a business that sells beer/liquor be held accountable or liable if an under-aged person presents them with a fake out-of-state driver's license to purchase an alcoholic beverage?
I went to a local 7-11 franchise yesterday with the intention of purchasing a six pack of beer. I have been to this store a number of times to do the same without incident. Yesterday, the cashier refused to sell me the beer because I have an out-of-state driver's license. Apparently, it is the owner's policy not to sell booze to out-of-staters.
I know that any business can refuse service to any customer for most any reason, so I don't need to be reminded of that. I felt that the policy was discriminatory in nature. I don't plan on pursuing some stupid frivolous lawsuit against the company, so don't fret; that's not what this is about. However, I am trying to justify to myself not to support a business that implements what I consider as a backwards and discriminatory policy towards out-of-staters. I go to this store 4-5 times a week to purchase a variety of things. After being turned down yesterday, I don't know if I want to spend my hard-earned cash there.
So I'm trying to determine if there is actual reasoning behind such a policy, as in, the store could get into major trouble if someone presented a fake out-of-state ID/driver's license to purchase alcohol and the attendant sold it without realizing that it was fake. I mean, what if it was fake in-state ID? What is the difference? I don't understand why out-of-staters would be the subject of this policy.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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I'm sure this varies a lot from State to State, but I can tell you I couldn't buy beer at 21 with an out of state ID in Vermont (when I was a senior) anywhere in the city. The law was you needed an in state ID, or passport (there might have been other legal docs like military ID). That was the state law. I could have, if I wanted to enough, gone to Montpelier and got a State liquor ID. I didn't bother. It might not be across the board enforced, but I'm betting it is the law. Perhaps the store got nabbed and is now enforcing it.
But yea, if someone buys something and the ID is fake I'm pretty sure in most states the store / restaurant can be busted. Most liquor stores know what the in state IDs look. Again, this si a long time ago, but when kids got fake IDs when I was in undergrad they always got ones from other states. They were less likely to be recognized as invalid. Then some places had big books of IDs, now some places have scanners, but often they aren't used, or weren't.
Many states have a magnetic strip/code on their drivers licenses and the retailer can swipe the license/punch in the code and it gets electronically read and verified.
The 'cost' to establishments for serving underage drinkers can be huge and it is economically worth it to lose a sale/customer here and there if you avoid making the error of selling to an illegal customer.
When a sale to a minor is made, and he goes out and kills someone with mom and dad's car, the legal fallout involves everyone from mom and dad, the car company, the liquor manufacturer, the retail establishment and the clerk. The resulting fines and punishment can destroy many lives along the way, so everyone is doubly careful about not getting involved in selling to minors.
I'd be pizzed for not getting my purchase accomplished, but I would also try to be understanding. My local grocer won't even process your purchase until they swipe your drivers license in. It is a PIA (I am well past 21), but that is the way their system is set up: no state license, no beer.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Yes, and if they are not comfortable judging whether a license from another state is valid or fake, they should refuse as they did in your case. Thos cost of fine, temporary loss of license, and lawsuits forces them to be very careful.
Is the risk really that much different than by selling to someone with a fake in-state license? Is it more difficult to obtain a fake in-state license? Is it easier for the cashier to detect?
I guess what I'm trying to understand is what's the difference between a fake in-state license and a fake out-of-state license?
The issue is the liability AND the police operating a sting to catch places selling to minors. In Tennessee, even 90 Y.O. grandmothers are required by law to show I.D. that they are over 21. Many of the alcohol laws border on Draconian.
Alabama licenses are "enhanced," most of the hard liquor is sold in state operated stores. I wouldn't hold the actions of the store against the owner or staff. I WOULD hold it against the state.
Is the risk really that much different than by selling to someone with a fake in-state license? Is it more difficult to obtain a fake in-state license? Is it easier for the cashier to detect?
I guess what I'm trying to understand is what's the difference between a fake in-state license and a fake out-of-state license?
Cashiers are going to be less familiar with out of state, plus there is a wide variation in IDs and the protections built into them.
The NY DL was very difficult to replicate when I had one, but I did get refused service in MN because they thought it was fake.
I'm not in AZ and our DLs expire when we turn 65 and they are somewhat generic ..... so it's thrown people off out of state
In Philly the #1 license to fake was NJ ..... it was common enough to not draw suspicion, was pretty generic with only a center seal that took any effort and not so common that the nuance would be grabbed at a glance
As mentioned there is a ton of potential liability and I can see how they would rather be safe than sorry .... especially on an out of state situation where they just may not be familiar with it
That doesn't mean you have to like it or shop there though.
A handful of years back I flew back home for a long weekend ..... my little brother picked me up at the airport ... he was 20, I was 28 ..... I had him hit the store so on the way to our house so I could pick up some groceries for the time I was home ..... since this was vacation for me as well I grabbed a 6 pack of a local beer I can't buy in AZ ..... right as I was getting ready to pay they asked for my brothers ID and then refused to sell to me because he was underage ...... I get why they would do it, but found it insulting .... I obviously wasn't trying to pull a fast one - it obviously wasn't just a beer run - I was clearly overage and visiting town - so the basic assumption is that I'm shady and looking to buy beer for a minor and dumb enough to do this without just having him sit in the car while I stop into a gas station or beer store ....... basically frustrated me to the point where I just cancelled my entire sale and left the groceries sitting there bagged in the checkout
Well I'm just glad that all stores don't do this. It's discriminating against out of staters and terrible for tourism business. And Michigan can use all the tourism business it can get.
I'm sure this varies a lot from State to State, but I can tell you I couldn't buy beer at 21 with an out of state ID in Vermont (when I was a senior) anywhere in the city. The law was you needed an in state ID, or passport (there might have been other legal docs like military ID). That was the state law. I could have, if I wanted to enough, gone to Montpelier and got a State liquor ID. I didn't bother. It might not be across the board enforced, but I'm betting it is the law. Perhaps the store got nabbed and is now enforcing it.
But yea, if someone buys something and the ID is fake I'm pretty sure in most states the store / restaurant can be busted. Most liquor stores know what the in state IDs look. Again, this si a long time ago, but when kids got fake IDs when I was in undergrad they always got ones from other states. They were less likely to be recognized as invalid. Then some places had big books of IDs, now some places have scanners, but often they aren't used, or weren't.
I'm happy that if it is a law across all states that it isn't enforced in NY! I still haven't gotten a NY ID so I'm using my Michigan one.
Also, I don't know how many states do this, but in Michigan if you are under 21 the ID is vertical and then when you turn 21 you get a horizontal ID. When it started it seemed that the vertical IDs expired when you turned 21. Now they aren't so efficient. My fiance's doesn't expire until she is 23. We were at Olive Garden once and they wouldn't serve her a drink because her ID was vertical, even though she is 22. Now she uses her Native American Card which looks like something you made at home and doesn't even get questioned at all...
Stores are held legally responsible. The government runs stings often, to make sure that regulations are complied with. Fines for violations are enormous, plus the license is often suspended.
The clerk might be some under-educated, minimum wage, semi-incompetant slump and it is unrealistic to expect all the clerks to learn how to detect fake ID for 50 different states and 40 foreign countries. It is much easier to make the clerk learn how to detect fakes from their own state and to automatically turn down out of state ID.
Maybe OP can learn to do without booze for a couple of days if he doesn't have a nationally recognized ID.
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