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Iowa, you are funny with your responses. "Loose cannon on deck" comes to mind.
"Hey look, there is Elvis!"
Iowa "BOOM!"
We actually agree on a few things, like once collective bargaining (by businesses) began to be used to drive down THEIR costs at the expense of others, the system began to fail. The issue is that insurance is socialist in nature, and businesses are capitalist in nature. Once you start mixing them you get weird malformed organizations. Strip Congress of a separate system, the military from a separate system and businesses and unions from collective bargaining and the fur would start to fly and much of the nonsense stop.
Anyway, the bit is about bankruptcy and deadbeats. Stack the deck in any game and then castigate the loser for being a deadbeat is a good way to get shot. That is human nature.
LOL. Haven't followed what gentle Ben did to keep Chinese investors from bailing have you? Few people realize or are willing to admit how close it was. I'll put you in that fairyland camp.
If you control your currency supply and your debt is all denominated in your currency nothing forces you to default. You can default if you want to but it doesn't just happen to you
The 'pool guy' as in, not a licensed and bonded contractor/company.
I'm not sure about every state, but in Washington state, a general contractor is required to have a $12,000 bond and a specialty contractor is required to have a $6,000 bond.
If your 'pool guy' had a bond for $6,000 - then the bonding company would have paid you the $5,000 that you lost. That is what bonds are for.
And in Washington state if/when a contractor goes bankrupt - and then tries to start another company after the bankruptcy, he has to have already cleared up any debts to consumers that he took money from prior to the bankruptcy in order to register again as a contractor. So a bankruptcy would clear up any debts a guy like that has and enable him to never pay them back - but would not automatically allow him to start a new company and register as a contractor again.
Not sure what state you are in, but if he was bonded at the point in time he received the $5,000 from you then the bonding company has to pay the money back to you assuming he had a bond of $5,000 or more. And then his bond rates in the future will be a lot more than they were when he secured the original bond, if he had one.
I paid back the required amount the court said I had to pay (roughly 50%) and after 4 years of payments my remaining debt was discharged.
Educate yourself on how bankruptcy works... And don't bother contacting the pool guy. You can get in trouble with the court if you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iowa4430
Very noble of you. Maybe YOU were my deadbeat pool guy.....
I'd prefer to NEVER have to know how the loopholes of bankruptcy works. And, if I ever did, I would pay off my creditors. Not just the "required" amount.
but that's just me.
No you wouldn't.
It's easy for you to stand here and say that because there isn't real money involved. Let's just pretend for a minute you filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy tomorrow with $20k in unsecured debt. The court set up a 4 year payment plan of roughly 50% ($10k) and you made those monthly payments.
At the end you got your discharge and were free and clear to move on with your life.
You would do the same thing any one of us would do and that is move on with your life. You would not contact your creditors and offer to pay them back their other $10k because you are no longer legally responsible for the debt.
Don't say you would because you wouldn't unless you were a complete and total idiot who wanted to throw away $10k out of the kindness of his heart.
As said... Educate yourself on how bankruptcy works. You think Chapter 13 is bad? Try Chapter 7. That is complete and total liquidation that doesn't involve any repayment. Debt today... none tomorrow. It's often used by people without assets as long as they meet the income requirements.
A 13 is a reorganization and isn't frowned upon nearly as bad as a 7 in the eyes of creditors.
Iowa, you are funny with your responses. "Loose cannon on deck" comes to mind.
"Hey look, there is Elvis!"
Iowa "BOOM!"
We actually agree on a few things, like once collective bargaining (by businesses) began to be used to drive down THEIR costs at the expense of others, the system began to fail. The issue is that insurance is socialist in nature, and businesses are capitalist in nature. Once you start mixing them you get weird malformed organizations. Strip Congress of a separate system, the military from a separate system and businesses and unions from collective bargaining and the fur would start to fly and much of the nonsense stop.
Anyway, the bit is about bankruptcy and deadbeats. Stack the deck in any game and then castigate the loser for being a deadbeat is a good way to get shot. That is human nature.
What is the collective bargaining by businesses you are referring to?
Thank you for making my points for me. The more you debate this, the deeper you will dig your own hole.
"Sounds like you didn't read your contract. "
Sounds like you have never read one of those "contracts" yourself, don't know how bad the "pre-existing" clauses were being abused by insurance companies, and never knew how those of us with enough guts to start our own businesses were getting to pay full rates while corporate dweebs and whingers were being protected by their magic cow corporate policies and giving their souls and lives to corporations for that protection.
The fact of my situation was that it was claimed that an unrelated abdominal pain should have been an indication that I had gallstones. It didn't matter that the pain was in a different part of the abdomen, was already reported related to a food sensitivity, and I continued to have it after the operation (and still do from time to time), it was used as a scapegoat to avoid a payout. I would have pursued it further, but in exploring and educating myself I discovered that I would end up paying MORE for the operation if they covered it than if I paid cash on my own and negotiated. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
When you go in for any emergency procedure - you will NOT get a chance to approve or negotiate fees. Go to an emergency room because you have your head stuck up your ... and they won't say "Mr. Chucklehead, it is going to cost $100,000 for us to remove it, do you want to proceed?" They will ask if you have insurance and do the job. The "contract" is open ended on price - something that is intolerable in just about any other business transaction. Maybe you just conveniently forgot that. Pay me $100,000 and I'll fix it for you.
"You generally get what you pay for."
BS. TOTAL BS in healthcare, the largest cause of bankruptcy in the U.S.
I'll give you another example of how you chuckleheads and uneducated people end up paying more by "protecting" yourselves with expensive insurance policies and not understanding the implications. I take three basic medications - all low cost generics. If I use insurance to pay for them, that would mean $30 in co-pays per month, plus having to drive to a pharmacy once a month and wait, plus the waste of 15 pill bottles. Over six months, that is $180 plus gas and time. I pay cash, and get a six month supply for less than $120. It ends up costing the insurance company nothing as well.
Here is the point. After recognizing the gaming that insurance and the health care industry has come to, I only use insurance like it was originally designed. I have an extremely high deductible that I hope to never use. If I do use it, it is 100% payment, no co-pays once the deductible is met. That means in any year I might have a major illness, I know my total outlay for medical care in advance and have funds set aside to cover it. I'm better off in some ways than people paying five times what I pay for in premiums.
If you look at the bronze and silver plans under Ocare, and consider that % co-pays don't tell you what the real costs are, all of a sudden those of you who have not read YOUR insurance contracts carefully begin to look like uneducated chuckleheads. If you are ill, I guarantee that on those plans you will end up paying more than I would. If you are NOT ill except for the common minor illnesses, I will likely STILL end up paying less in premiums and co-pays than you.
In healthcare you generally do not see any meaningful relationship in how much you spend on insurance and what you get in healthcare. It is DESIGNED that way.
The entire population has been brainwashed into accepting a status quo in healthcare that is more designed to extract money than diseased organs.
Would I allow you to extract my gallbladder for $60K. Nope, but considering I had an Indian surgeon, I WOULD fly to a top hospital in India and have it removed for $15,000 and get a vacation at the same time.
The greater point is that when the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the U.S. is healthcare related, and that system is designed to extract money to the point of bankruptcy, the majority of the "deadbeats" forced into bankruptcy are not thieves any more than kids sold into slavery are responsible for their own slavery.
Interesting points, but it sounds like your coverage doesnt meet the new ACA reform. Do you have to pay the yearly penalty for not having what the government claims to be " adequate coverage"?
I have read on various sites where people opt to get unconventional coverage with high deductibles, and even after considering the fine feel like they are better off.
It's easy for you to stand here and say that because there isn't real money involved. Let's just pretend for a minute you filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy tomorrow with $20k in unsecured debt. The court set up a 4 year payment plan of roughly 50% ($10k) and you made those monthly payments.
At the end you got your discharge and were free and clear to move on with your life.
You would do the same thing any one of us would do and that is move on with your life. You would not contact your creditors and offer to pay them back their other $10k because you are no longer legally responsible for the debt.
Don't say you would because you wouldn't unless you were a complete and total idiot who wanted to throw away $10k out of the kindness of his heart.
As said... Educate yourself on how bankruptcy works. You think Chapter 13 is bad? Try Chapter 7. That is complete and total liquidation that doesn't involve any repayment. Debt today... none tomorrow. It's often used by people without assets as long as they meet the income requirements.
A 13 is a reorganization and isn't frowned upon nearly as bad as a 7 in the eyes of creditors.
As for the pool guy... You are SOL.
Deadbeats are deadbeats.
If I spent the money. I would repay the money.
Yes, I CAN say what I would do. Ive had opportunities to walk away from situations that people like you would have. I didnt. I paid.
I would have pocketed sizeable chunks of cash but it wasnt right. Legally I had every right to stick it to the other guy. Just like you did.
I have also had opportunities to close deals that would make me tjousands and thousands of dollars over the years. All I had to do was look the other way. Just take the money.
Some people are just slimy. Great lesson for the children.
Yes, I CAN say what I would do. Ive had opportunities to walk away from situations that people like you would have. I didnt. I paid.
I would have pocketed sizeable chunks of cash but it wasnt right. Legally I had every right to stick it to the other guy. Just like you did.
I have also had opportunities to close deals that would make me tjousands and thousands of dollars over the years. All I had to do was look the other way. Just take the money.
Some people are just slimy. Great lesson for the children.
LOL whatever... So you are a nice guy and always pay everyone back. You would even pay back a debt that was discharged in bankruptcy... (Yeah right... That would defeat the purpose but keep blowing that smoke)
Nobody cares... Not the banks... Not I... Not the pool guy who is laughing all the way to the bank with your $5,000.
Interesting points, but it sounds like your coverage doesnt meet the new ACA reform. Do you have to pay the yearly penalty for not having what the government claims to be " adequate coverage"?
I have read on various sites where people opt to get unconventional coverage with high deductibles, and even after considering the fine feel like they are better off.
My policy is grandfathered in. I wouldn't have to pay a penalty either way since there is no "withholding" for them to grab (own my Corp., no salary). As Alabama did not opt in to the expansion of Medicare, there are a LOT of people in the state who literally would be paying more in health insurance than they have as income.
jdm - when a large business decides to provide insurance or healthcare as part of employment packages, the underwriters come in and look at the overall risks. The business then negotiates with insurance companies, that are all hoping to land the big fish. If the rates are still too high, the company has a couple of options (much more limited since "reform") The first is to self-insure. If employees are young and healthy and the business large enough, this can make sense provided there are limitations on payouts. With reform, lifetime caps are effectively removed so the option isn't as good.
A side effect of the collective bargaining by businesses has been the age discrimination against older workers, especially in right-to-work states. Get to about age 55 and suddenly an excuse like "downsizing" or a transfer to East Bumfock weeds you out. Get sick and something similar will happen. The real reason is that the underwriters are having cows and the cost of coverage will increase for the executives. This is a major reason why tying policies to a particular company is particularly horrid. Once the ill person is "let go" they can't afford a private policy, and the best thing for friends, relatives and society is for them to die quickly.
The second extreme measure that companies will sometimes do is NOT offer insurance, but instead have in-house medical staff. There is a casino in Vegas with its own company hospital. (Not sure if it still does, haven't been out there in a few years.)
Excuse me.
The recession started on Bush's watch, not Obama's.
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Give me a break
