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I worked for a Big 4 firm years ago when it was still the Big 6.
Plenty of minorities, mostly asians, at staff through senior levels. Much fewer at manager, even fewer at senior manager and just a couple of token minorites at partner level (one asian, one hispanic and one black), mainly to handle minority clients of the same race. The asians were often among the smartest, hardest working employees at the firm. White employees of average abilities were often mentored and groomed for upper management based on family/political connections and, well, race. Very much an old boy's club. This never occurred with minority employees, who were usually mentored only by the token minority partners or by minorities in lower level management. Whites in upper ranks always like to use the tired excuse that race is a non issue and that minorities lack leadership/managerial skills, which is mostly a outdated stereotype in my experience. On several occasions, I overheard white partners express racist sentiments or had them "invite me" to share in such conversations.
If you're a minority, my advice is 2 years and get out. Or decide to stay 4-5 years to make manager if you are willing to kiss ass that long, then move on to bigger and better things. Only the mediocre stay in public accounting for life anyway. I hear the large firms now have mandatory retirement at 50 or 55.
Still, I look back at those days fondly and I have no regrets. I'm just telling it like it is. There are a lot of good people in your start group who will become lifelong friends. Things may have changed since then, but probably not much. Very similar environment in mainstream law firms, investment banking, etc., afaik.
A minority of manager told me once just before he left that current situation is a lot better than it used to be. (he was a boomerang, worked 3 yrs senior, left for few years, came back to big4 as mgr with the same firm). I can't even imagine what it was like 5 or 10 years ago.
I went to a top ranked target private uni and plenty of Asians were able to place... and i knew quite a bunch who made management(middle mostly)
The big thing is... MOST that I talked to just plain did "NOT WANT" to go into upper management.. Many of them just did not want that kind of work/life balance when I asked/spoke to them
At the end of the day though like you said if they work hard, do well, carry/present themselves they WILL have a chance to move up though, it may not be as "easy" as someone who may be "white", but it is not to say that it is "impossible". The thing is, thing like politics, NEPOTISM, and ability to network will ALWAYS be factors regardless. So those things may/may not help someone who is "white" depending on how marketable they are as a CFO/CEO in comparison to someone who is "asian/black/latino". So in the end, it really comes down to the person I believe. It was also mentioned how many black students could not pass the classes to get into the MSA/CPA program, I (not racist) noticed that too, or the fact that those classes were pretty much ALL white or asian.
Anyways like I said, many Asians that I spoke with just did NOT WANT that kind of position due to work/life balance(regardless if that was true or not). So it could come down to preference. Furthermore, many people regardless of race (myself included) want to work for a Big4 for "reference/work experience/resume" use ALONE.
Last edited by The_Man74; 07-26-2015 at 07:52 AM..
I went to a top ranked target private uni and plenty of Asians were able to place... and i knew quite a bunch who made management(middle mostly)
The big thing is... MOST that I talked to just plain did "NOT WANT" to go into upper management.. Many of them just did not want that kind of work/life balance when I asked/spoke to them
At the end of the day though like you said if they work hard, do well, carry/present themselves they WILL have a chance to move up though, it may not be as "easy" as someone who may be "white", but it is not to say that it is "impossible". The thing is, thing like politics, NEPOTISM, and ability to network will ALWAYS be factors regardless. So those things may/may not help someone who is "white" depending on how marketable they are as a CFO/CEO in comparison to someone who is "asian/black/latino". So in the end, it really comes down to the person I believe. It was also mentioned how many black students could not pass the classes to get into the MSA/CPA program, I (not racist) noticed that too, or the fact that those classes were pretty much ALL white or asian.
Anyways like I said, many Asians that I spoke with just did NOT WANT that kind of position due to work/life balance(regardless if that was true or not). So it could come down to preference. Furthermore, many people regardless of race (myself included) want to work for a Big4 for "reference/work experience/resume" use ALONE.
Work/life balance is what we're supposed to say when we exit, especially to the next employers. We all know that talking anything negative about our past employers will never get us the jobs that we're interviewers. I'm not a statistician, but EVERYBODY I spoke with that are minority said they are forced out because there were not enough minority clients of the same decent. I don't know how sales industry or entertainment industry deal with this but I guess its the closest scenarios?
I was speaking with several headhunters (third-party recruiting agencies) and they told me that not only can I say negative about the big4 when I leave, but I also cannot give a slightly inclination that I was dissatisfied when it come to the racial topic. They gave me examples where even some big4 people mentioned the word "politics" and that can be construed as being racially sensitive. These people have like 40 years of recruiting experience so I'll take their word for it.
The other thing that these headhunter mentioned was that these potential employers often call the big4 and ask for the candidate's background (technically illegal but happens all the time). I knew this because SVP/Controller at a public company once told me he does this.
I will ask everybody on this forum to observe something. In the company or the firms you work in, focus on the accounting department especially at the financial reporting/technical accounting groups. How many non-white people do you have? Also look at the accounting firms of all sizes and especially at the big4. How many non-white do you have? 2 years ago, I went to a team meeting and the stat was shown regarding our firm and the minority composition were asians at 10%~, hispanics at 4%~, and blacks at 2% or 1%~ (forget which) nationally in the US. Given the demographic of certain offices, this is a really low figure. For blacks, I think they were including the back office function as well such as receptionists and ITs.
Whites dominate this industry and there is a very very strong culture to keep the status quo. I'm on this forum because I felt it and more importantly, I've seen the new hires out of college are subjected to this type of torture for the past 3 years.
This needs to change. I'm convinced the only catalysts that can drive this change is 1) exposing the big4 filtering systems for the white race to the public and 2) focusing on the frats and sororities in universities. Again, this thread started because I now fully realize how much these new kids out of colleges are trained to push out the minority. I'm currently seeing a stark contrast of those white new hires coming out of local universities vs. those that are coming from southern and mid-southern state universities with frat/sorority background.
I've been following the recruiting activities within my firm, other big4, and the Grant Thornton and McGladrey in our local offices. GT and McG tend to recruit mostly from the local universities. Other big4 does as well but also few from outside of our region. Out of all of them, my firm is 50/50 if not more in hiring people not from local universities but from places like Texas, South Carolina, (east) Tenneessee, Missouri, and other states (namely BYU). I have a harder time telling for those students coming out of private schools even locally. They tend to vary.
Work/life balance is what we're supposed to say when we exit, especially to the next employers. We all know that talking anything negative about our past employers will never get us the jobs that we're interviewers. I'm not a statistician, but EVERYBODY I spoke with that are minority said they are forced out because there were not enough minority clients of the same decent. I don't know how sales industry or entertainment industry deal with this but I guess its the closest scenarios?
I was speaking with several headhunters (third-party recruiting agencies) and they told me that not only can I say negative about the big4 when I leave, but I also cannot give a slightly inclination that I was dissatisfied when it come to the racial topic. They gave me examples where even some big4 people mentioned the word "politics" and that can be construed as being racially sensitive. These people have like 40 years of recruiting experience so I'll take their word for it.
The other thing that these headhunter mentioned was that these potential employers often call the big4 and ask for the candidate's background (technically illegal but happens all the time). I knew this because SVP/Controller at a public company once told me he does this.
I will ask everybody on this forum to observe something. In the company or the firms you work in, focus on the accounting department especially at the financial reporting/technical accounting groups. How many non-white people do you have? Also look at the accounting firms of all sizes and especially at the big4. How many non-white do you have? 2 years ago, I went to a team meeting and the stat was shown regarding our firm and the minority composition were asians at 10%~, hispanics at 4%~, and blacks at 2% or 1%~ (forget which) nationally in the US. Given the demographic of certain offices, this is a really low figure. For blacks, I think they were including the back office function as well such as receptionists and ITs.
Whites dominate this industry and there is a very very strong culture to keep the status quo. I'm on this forum because I felt it and more importantly, I've seen the new hires out of college are subjected to this type of torture for the past 3 years.
This needs to change. I'm convinced the only catalysts that can drive this change is 1) exposing the big4 filtering systems for the white race to the public and 2) focusing on the frats and sororities in universities. Again, this thread started because I now fully realize how much these new kids out of colleges are trained to push out the minority. I'm currently seeing a stark contrast of those white new hires coming out of local universities vs. those that are coming from southern and mid-southern state universities with frat/sorority background.
I've been following the recruiting activities within my firm, other big4, and the Grant Thornton and McGladrey in our local offices. GT and McG tend to recruit mostly from the local universities. Other big4 does as well but also few from outside of our region. Out of all of them, my firm is 50/50 if not more in hiring people not from local universities but from places like Texas, South Carolina, (east) Tenneessee, Missouri, and other states (namely BYU).
yea
So you list some good "target" states, although I'm suprised you left off North Carolina (with UNC-Chapel Hill, Elon, Duke) and Virginia off your list
Anyways, i'm speaking on behalf of Texas alone(since I live there)
There are a good amount of Asians in Big 4 that are middle management, such as controller(comes to mind very easily), and they are just "happy" with their work/life balance and lifestyle
yes it is TRUE to make "upper management" CFO/CEO race may "help" and so does nepotism as well as "connections". It is just the way the world/system works. If you had rushed Lambda Chi/Fiji/etc you would absolutely give favoritism to the guy from the same frat/brotherhood with all things else being equal when promoting wouldn't you? That only makes sense
The fact is... MOST fraternity brothers are "white" but those of minorities whom can fit in and assimilate and make those fraternities are the ones i've seen advance more often than not
And again, it comes to lifestyle choice. Many like the lifestyle of middle management (controller as example again) and are content/happy with it. There is a question as to how much money is too much?
To reiterate your thing on "politics" too regarding "business"... I know quite a few minorities in IB, O&G industries, Healthcare(not HCP, but still in business), real estate, consulting, etc who DO make upper management and make well over 100k/annually
so it comes down to the best fit for yourself and what amount of money YOU are happy with
I'll give one more example since I'm on here. Few months ago, I was asked to partake in the hosting for our interviews of college students. That kid that I escorted did not seem to like me at all (I've done this before and was never an issue). He was from South Carolina (forgot which college) and the only thing he said to me really at the wrap-up session between me and him was that he told me he's from South Carolina and that he used to work/intern for a gun company. Also during the lunch where we had round tables of interviewees and their hosts, he would only speak with the white folks at my table. (I think there were 2 asian hosts including myself, a middle eastern interviewee as well)
These people are not apologetic about what they do and they think it is their right. This needs to be addressed at these firms.
So you list some good "target" states, although I'm suprised you left off North Carolina (with UNC-Chapel Hill, Elon, Duke) and Virginia off your list
Anyways, i'm speaking on behalf of Texas alone(since I live there)
There are a good amount of Asians in Big 4 that are middle management, such as controller(comes to mind very easily), and they are just "happy" with their work/life balance and lifestyle
yes it is TRUE to make "upper management" CFO/CEO race may "help" and so does nepotism as well as "connections". It is just the way the world/system works. If you had rushed Lambda Chi/Fiji/etc you would absolutely give favoritism to the guy from the same frat/brotherhood with all things else being equal when promoting wouldn't you? That only makes sense
The fact is... MOST fraternity brothers are "white" but those of minorities whom can fit in and assimilate and make those fraternities are the ones i've seen advance more often than not
And again, it comes to lifestyle choice. Many like the lifestyle of middle management (controller as example again) and are content/happy with it. There is a question as to how much money is too much?
To reiterate your thing on "politics" too regarding "business"... I know quite a few minorities in IB, O&G industries, Healthcare(not HCP, but still in business), real estate, consulting, etc who DO make upper management and make well over 100k/annually
so it comes down to the best fit for yourself and what amount of money YOU are happy with
I'm not focusing on the ceiling of where the minorities are allowed. I'm focusing on the training that happens at these sororities and fraternities and the efforts that certain firms/offices make to recruit people out of those areas for the sole purposes of keeping it "pure". Without the influx of new racists, it would be almost impossible to keep the current system alive.
Tell me something, if the intent of universities is to integrate all kinds of people (I know a lot of universities require on-campus dorm their first year), why do we even allow fraternities and sororities whose sole purpose is to encourage exclusion? I would imagine the race is the #1 goal, isn't it?
I'll give one more example since I'm on here. Few months ago, I was asked to partake in the hosting for our interviews of college students. That kid that I escorted did not seem to like me at all (I've done this before and was never an issue). He was from South Carolina (forgot which college) and the only thing he said to me really at the wrap-up session between me and him was that he told me he's from South Carolina and that he used to work/intern for a gun company. Also during the lunch where we had round tables of interviewees and their hosts, he would only speak with the white folks at my table. (I think there were 2 asian hosts including myself, a middle eastern interviewee as well)
These people are not apologetic about what they do and they think it is their right. This needs to be addressed at these firms.
well I am sorry for your bad experience
I can tell you, through my experience being bi racial (Eurasian) that I have never felt/noticed any sort of that
But it really does come down to how your present/carry yourself, that's really it. Going to a top tier school in my region definately helped, I will say that(but that should be obvious)
Exclusion is part of what we do and jobs, I get that. In accounting, we arbitrarily increase the number of credits needed to take CPA exams and lower the curve of CPA exams to make it hard to get into this industry. At the end of the day, fewer of us there are, better it is for the rest of us.
While race-based favoritism exists everywhere, the big4 firms are one of the worst offenders at it. If it let this go and let the next generation suffer the same level of discrimination, then I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do.
I can tell you, through my experience being bi racial (Eurasian) that I have never felt/noticed any sort of that
But it really does come down to how your present/carry yourself, that's really it. Going to a top tier school in my region definately helped, I will say that(but that should be obvious)
Let's at least recognize that there are people specific to the origins that I mentioned above exist. That would be a first step. If what I saw was once or twice, I wouldn't do any of this. I expected this coming in anyway. (is it a surprise a higher up would groom someone of the same race and gender?)
But this is SYSTEMIC. I think that is where a lot of proliferators would argue that its not.
I'm not focusing on the ceiling of where the minorities are allowed. I'm focusing on the training that happens at these sororities and fraternities and the efforts that certain firms/offices make to recruit people out of those areas for the sole purposes of keeping it "pure". Without the influx of new racists, it would be almost impossible to keep the current system alive.
Tell me something, if the intent of universities is to integrate all kinds of people (I know a lot of universities require on-campus dorm their first year), why do we even allow fraternities and sororities whose sole purpose is to encourage exclusion? I would imagine the race is the #1 goal, isn't it?
Again I understand what you are saying
I, being half Asian myself, had NO trouble getting into a top tier fraternity
The thing is... whether life/work/job/FRATS are "fair" or not, exclusion is what keeps the world, wealth, and economy running
If EVERYone could make 250k a year, they would right? but that would DEvalue the worth of a dollar obviously
I will say that hard work, effort, school recognition/prestige, NETWORKING, and just really EFFORT go a long way. I worked part time going through college too, not necessarily that I had to, but because I wanted to bring in extra income and pay off things myself.... BUT I still attended almost EVERY mixer/dinner/formal/meeting/party/etc that I could find or was invited to.. So that was quite a bit (lol) but I put in the "effort" to do that too and it made the difference
I'm not trying to sound pretentious that I got into a "top tier" fraternity or did all these things, but a hiring/upper management WILL see and KNOW about these things inevitably. So i'm sure that that is a strong factor as well.
At the end of the day, you don't just sell your job, your school/degree... but you also sell YOURSELF
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