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Old 03-01-2010, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Adrian, MI
5 posts, read 24,590 times
Reputation: 11

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Wow, this is a very interesting thread, and I must admit I stumbled on it merely by accident. It's interesting to me because I am a professional SEO - this is what I do for a living, and I am constantly amazed by the perceptions (and misconceptions) about SEO.

Let me tell you, I've been working online for 15 years now - since 1995 full time, and SEO is something anyone can learn (over time), but you certainly can't read some "secret document in buzzle" and figure out how to dominate search. The google algorithm is not only patented, it's PUBLIC - you can find it all over the web. Even if you know how to work the math, you still are no closer to dominating search.

SEO covers so many things that most pros don't even know enough to do the best SEO. Usually they know how to build links and do some keyword research, but even that's not enough. I will try to give you some advice - and hopefully it will help in some way.

SEO is search engine optimization, but it much more than building links. I specifically devised a 4 phase system because SEO involves so much that building links is the LAST thing you want to do. If you are going to hire an "SEO", you not only need to ask for references, but ask for a proposal on exactly what they are going to do and test their knowledge in advance - ask lots of questions.

I tell all my clients - this is my process for working with you...

Phase 1 - Security and Indexing: I make sure the site is secure, and then set it up for indexing including a good robots files and XML sitemap - and then I register it with search engines

Phase 2 - Competitive Analysis: I ask my clients what keywords "they" think are best to use. Then, I do keyword research to see if they are right. 95% of the time the keywords my clients are using AREN'T the best to use. Once I find the best phrases I research to top 10 positions on the first page of google for each and determine what authority they have and what it would take to rank on the first page with them. From that I create an "action plan" to compete with the competition.

Phase 3 - On-Site SEO: here we complete the foundation and I put the best keywords in all the right places on the web site. At the same time I teach my clients when and where to use SEO in the future so they can do this on their own when creating new pages or posts on a blog.

Phase 4 - Linkbuilding and Authority: Now, with the proper foundation in place, the right keywords, and an indexable web site - we can begin building links and authority to compete online. Depending on the keywords, the clients budget, and the competition this can take a few weeks to a year. In a recent project I ranked for fairly competitive keywords on the #10 position on the first page of google in just 7 weeks. On the other hand, it might take 4 more months of hard work to get up the page to the top positions.

I don't know any full-time professional SEO that would work on "commission". In all fairness ShakyJ - how do I know you're going to sell anything or what rate your conversion will be? If you want me to setup and split test your pages for the best conversions - that's another story, but as an SEO my job is to setup your site, research your competition, and build authority for your site over time. I have no guarantee your web site and copy will convert, and no way of auditing how many sales you get. As an SEO I get paid on an hourly basis - plain and simple. The SEO's that are good have more work than there are hours in the day, so we don't want jobs like this. If you found a so called SEO to take your commission job, I would question their skills and how busy they actually are. That's like asking the mechanic to fix your ice cream truck and get paid when you sell ice cream later on.

On the other hand - there's nothing stopping you from learning SEO and doing it on your own. It would just take you longer. Most people give up when they find out it's 20-30 hours of hard work per week building authority for a site that doesn't have. I have interns working for me now learning that the hard way. It takes at least 6 months of full time work to learn how to rank well for really competitive keywords, sometimes longer.

I wish you luck, and for anyone looking for a professional SEO:
-don't post ads on Craigslist (sorry, we don't look for work there)
-ask what they do to get sites setup for indexing
-ask how they do keyword research and do they do competitive research for your market
-ask how they do your on-site SEO
-ask how and when they do linkbuilding (it should be last)
-run FAR AWAY from anyone that says they can "buy you links" or pagerank

I hope I helped someone reading this thread with this information, and I know what I'm talking about - this is what I do full-time each and every day, I had 140 clients with projects last year alone...just google my name and you'll find me.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:55 AM
 
544 posts, read 1,482,130 times
Reputation: 410
I must confess when I started reading this thread, I had no idea that SEO meant Search Engine Optimization. My (very) small business was originally a homepage based on my interest in stringed instruments, musicology, and pedagogy. I taught myself html code, through painful and lengthy trial and error; I'm on the first page of most searches because (a) I've been around forever; and (b) I configure the headers in my source code correctly (I think).

I've accessed IT forums and help desks, and pestered IT people thousands of times over the last 16 years or so. People have generally always been kind enough to help me, but on the other hand, what I get mostly is the following:

1. My pages are designed "circa 1987" and are "a mess";
2. They (the IT people) would be happy to redesign my pages -- for a hefty fee.

Since my pages (about 300 of them altogether) get thousands of hits every day, and since my sales are about what I can handle, and I generally always come up on the first page of search engines, I'm left with this problem, which is: how can I determine if, indeed, my pages are "a mess" and outdated or distinguish between these IT folks just wanting to make money from me.

Someone else told me that, even though I don't use the more contemporary CSS, if my pages still work fine, not to worry about it. One IT person who is a moderator on a forum even redid one of my pages, complimentary, but she made a mess of it and I had to redo it.

Forgive me, but in my experience, IT people can be very, very rude and really difficult to deal with, since they presuppose that I'm an idiot and they know better than me. This woman, mentioned above, is a good example and there have been plenty of others. It's really difficult, in other words, to trust them.

I have a couple of people who work for me, but I don't want to expand, and don't want to add a lot of employees. But how can I determine, inexpensively, if my pages are really sub-par, (and not just being told so by someone who wants me to give them money)? Also, is there some future date when only CSS compliant pages will work?

TIA

Last edited by scsigurl3000; 03-02-2010 at 05:32 AM..
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:00 AM
 
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
3,857 posts, read 6,944,519 times
Reputation: 1817
Quote:
Originally Posted by scsigurl3000 View Post
1. My pages are designed "circa 1987" and are "a mess";
2. They (the IT people) would be happy to redesign my pages -- for a hefty fee.
My main site is also butt ugly but it works. Don't worry about tables being 'deprecated' or not using the latest CSS or CMS. Do not under any circumstances change your navigation or rename any of the pages - within weeks you will lose 1/2 your traffic and take months to recover - but not anywhere close to what you had. Add to your site but don't change what you have. You will regret it. The temptation is to move to a CMS that will allow easy updates - but only do it if you can keep your existing page URLs - exactly.
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:08 AM
 
544 posts, read 1,482,130 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Siete View Post
My main site is also butt ugly but it works. Don't worry about tables being 'deprecated' or not using the latest CSS or CMS. Do not under any circumstances change your navigation or rename any of the pages - within weeks you will lose 1/2 your traffic and take months to recover - but not anywhere close to what you had. Add to your site but don't change what you have. You will regret it.
No, I wasn't about to change the URLs; I've worked too hard to develop them. It's the formatting of the pages that troubles me. However, I'm getting feedback on another forum ( SEO and CSS issues - HTMLHelp Forums ) that suggests I'm basically okay.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Adrian, MI
5 posts, read 24,590 times
Reputation: 11
I would agree with Gary. Do not change navigation or page names at all. I wouldn't make any major changes quickly - and any changes I made would be on a one page test at a time.

I know from experience when I just changed the theme of my site in Wordpress a few years back my traffic dropped for 6 months. It took me a long time to learn not to make major changes to sites that were well indexed.

Everyone is right, your pages will be good for a long time to come.

- John

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Siete View Post
My main site is also butt ugly but it works. Don't worry about tables being 'deprecated' or not using the latest CSS or CMS. Do not under any circumstances change your navigation or rename any of the pages - within weeks you will lose 1/2 your traffic and take months to recover - but not anywhere close to what you had. Add to your site but don't change what you have. You will regret it. The temptation is to move to a CMS that will allow easy updates - but only do it if you can keep your existing page URLs - exactly.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:32 AM
 
544 posts, read 1,482,130 times
Reputation: 410
I know what you're talking about; my pages were originally on GeoCities. I was one of the Community Leaders on there when they did that. And of course, GeoCities was not a commercial page and I did have to go with a commercial server when I went commercial. I had to monitor the net and make a zillion requests for an update of the various URLs. I still do that occasionally, since I have forward links from the old pages and GeoCities is now closed.

The WebDesignGroup (and no, I don't work for them) has a good Web Authoring FAQ which I think is going to be very helpful. I have vision problems due to my age and the MS, so I'm going to have to get a larger monitor and new glasses. And then I'm going to teach myself CSS. I think that would be the thing to do. I would also like to learn programming.

The forward looking entrepreneur has to see that distance learning and online video has to be where it's going. There is a doctorate (well, EdD) in educational technology not five blocks from here, which I was in before; I should probably go over there and finish it. Working for yourself is wonderful but you can't go stale or you'll be left in the dust. It's not even the money which (for me at least) is the incentive; it's the challenge.

Last edited by scsigurl3000; 03-03-2010 at 05:24 AM..
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,660,138 times
Reputation: 24860
shakeyJ - People with your cheapskate attitude are why I folded my business a long time ago.

Terry31 - You should learn how to use the English language before soliciting work.

I will start checking more pages when I search for something on Google. Thanks for letting me know the ranking may be due to manipulating the system than to competence.
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Old 03-11-2010, 12:58 PM
 
Location: California
243 posts, read 1,204,250 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
shakeyJ - People with your cheapskate attitude are why I folded my business a long time ago.

Terry31 - You should learn how to use the English language before soliciting work.

I will start checking more pages when I search for something on Google. Thanks for letting me know the ranking may be due to manipulating the system than to competence.

Greg.. get off your soap box and get a life. If you read my post you would see I am willing to pay for seo work. My idea was for a long term partner who would benefit far more in the long run. Offering more money is hardly a "cheapskate" attitude.
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:05 PM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,670,896 times
Reputation: 14737
I agree with jtpratt, good post.

I would add that your code needs to be structured in a certain way. search engines love CSS with the cleanest possible HTML code-- and a central tenet of CSS is the seperation of presentation from content. so, if your site is built using <table> tags, then your SEO is going to suffer mightily, compared to "cleaner" code where all styling is done in a .css file.

I'm not in this business, but i think good SEO is something that should be a part of your site, from the ground up. It doesn't make sense to me to hire someone to come in and "improve SEO" after your site has already been developed; it isn't something that makes sense to 'tack on' later.
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