Court Stops Arizona Law\ California Vindicated (San Francisco: sales, unemployed, contractors)

[AwayAndBackToSac]

Originally Posted by Brenda-by-the-sea

This is a multi-faceted problem that will require a variety of arrows in our problem-solving quiver. Yes, incentives are one angle of the issue. So is legal immigration policy. But border security is, too. The fact that no single legislative action constitutes a panacea by itself doesn't mean that it isn't a necessary component of a comprehensive approach to covering all the bases.

he he he.

Actually a well secured border would solve all the problems...

As would strict enforcement of no employment, no renting/home ownership, and no social services/benefits to those who are here ILLEGALLY.

Doing a mixture of many different things only allows for those things to be done poorly, with much replication and waste...

...but maybe that's the real objective, to enlarge the government.

Regardless, neither political party wants the offend the next largest voting block in the US (whether the border in enforced or not).

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by AwayAndBackToSac

Free medical care?
Free education?
Free food stamps?

...

So you are telling me that, that alone is enough? No need to send money back home which most of them do? The majority of these people (they are still people in case anyone has forgotten) look for work. CNN had a story on this; in one are of the Central Valley, in 10 years of farm workers applying, not one has been an American. I know that isn't the scope of this discussion necessarily, just saying.

[AwayAndBackToSac]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

So you are telling me that, that alone is enough? No need to send money back home which most of them do? The majority of these people (they are still people in case anyone has forgotten) look for work. CNN had a story on this; in one are of the Central Valley, in 10 years of farm workers applying, not one has been an American. I know that isn't the scope of this discussion necessarily, just saying.

All kidding aside, I have worked providing health care in third world countries. You bet. If I lived in the horrific conditions I experienced in South America and South Africa, yes I would do just about anything to come here for just the above reasons... and even more so, because we all know they will be legalized eventually.

We just need to enforce a border. Physical and monetary.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Ok, I understand that. However, would you agree that the issue has more to do with the incentive (jobs places to rent etc.) and that's where we should be tackling this?

certainly none of us have all the answers, but what you suggest should be addressed asap.

Here are the areas that need to be addressed:

Greedy businesses that hire illegals
Greedy landlords who rent to illegals
our government, for not doing enough to secure the borders
families that welcome illegals into their homes
no government assistanace except in the case of medical for a true emergancy: life and death situations.

Crack down on all the above and our problem would be only 1/2 as bad or less.

For those who keep saying, but they add to the argriculture economy. Do you really think there are not Americans that would pick if needed? The produce would go from farm to market without illegals.

Nita

[Highnlite]

[QUOTEDo you really think there are not Americans that would pick if needed? The produce would go from farm to market without illegals. ][/quote]

Sure there are Americans who work the fields, they just happen to be Americans of Mexican descent and they comprise about 20% of the work force. The farm worker union has been running a campaign to get non hispanic Americans into the fields, last I checked they got four guys.

You might not like illegals in the fields, you might not like chemical pesticides in the fields, but America is dependent on both.

[QUOTEGreedy businesses that hire illegals][/quote]

So, Ken Hayashi has 317 acres of cabbage that need weeding and harvesting, if 80% of the men who show up to work are illegals, he is greedy?

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by Highnlite

[QUOTEDo you really think there are not Americans that would pick if needed? The produce would go from farm to market without illegals. ]

Sure there are Americans who work the fields, they just happen to be Americans of Mexican descent and they comprise about 20% of the work force. The farm worker union has been running a campaign to get non hispanic Americans into the fields, last I checked they got four guys.

You might not like illegals in the fields, you might not like chemical pesticides in the fields, but America is dependent on both.

[QUOTEGreedy businesses that hire illegals][/quote]

So, Ken Hayashi has 317 acres of cabbage that need weeding and harvesting, if 80% of the men who show up to work are illegals, he is greedy?[/quote]


And how do you think they got picked before illegals invaded Ca and a few other states? What about a sensible work program?

Those 20% that show up, they are Americans, by your own admission, they are not illegals. We are not talking Americans here, or those who have green cards, we are talking illegals.

As for the farmers union, well I won't comment on that as I am extremely anti unions.

I will assure you, if the borders were sequired and businesses stopped hiring illegals the work would get done.

By the way, if Mr boss pays a working wage the workers will work.
You are pro illegals and think they help our economy. I happen to feel like 60 to 70% of Americans, we don't want people in our country illegally.

And yes, most of us do want a workers program of some sort, but that doesn't mean we close our eyes to those who enter by climbing over a fense. We don't want a bunch of people here who depend on our government for support (and many do).

Nita

NIta

[slo1318]

Originally Posted by Highnlite

If that were true, there would be no illegal immigration from Mexico, now, would there?

Ya'll missed my point, here let me say it again, the exact language used to describe Mexicans in this country were used to describe the "yellow peril".

To say my post is irrelevant or I did not make a distinction between ethnicity and behavior, is to miss the point.

And that is very simple, moral vs immoral.

In brief, Mexican immigration is seen as dangerous to America, and Mexicans are dangerous criminals.

1882 Chinese immigration is seen as dangerous to America and Chinese are dangerous criminals,

I don't much care what you believe, just so long as you understand that hatred of the "other" is as American as apple pie.

No. You are drawing your own conclusions based on your own bias. Are some of those problems real? Absolutely they are real. The problem is not immigration, its the vast amount of illegal immigration and the problems that come with it.
I work in design and construction and I deal with and am very good friends with my Mexican born subcontractors. Several of whom are extremely successful and have worked on citizenship for years. They are very hard working people. Our stone mason recently immigrated his wife and two kids......legally, it took five years, but he did it the right way.
I am definitely for reform, for a clear distinction between legal and illegal immigration, and for streamlined work visas that could apply to those who do not want permanent residency.
You are drawing a false equivalency, and not offering any solutions.

[malamute]

Pay legal wages and offer standand benefits and you'll get Americans willing to work. One problem however is that agriculture provides very few jobs - fewer than 2 million total jobs, too many are seasonal jobs only and because of very rapid population growth, farm land is dwindling quickly and according to the government's own occupational forecasts, jobs in agriculture are dwindling. Also there are no caps on H2A visas so there is really no excuse to bring in illegals.

[Brenda-by-the-sea]

Originally Posted by Highnlite

[QUOTEDo you really think there are not Americans that would pick if needed? The produce would go from farm to market without illegals. ]

Sure there are Americans who work the fields, they just happen to be Americans of Mexican descent and they comprise about 20% of the work force. The farm worker union has been running a campaign to get non hispanic Americans into the fields, last I checked they got four guys.

You might not like illegals in the fields, you might not like chemical pesticides in the fields, but America is dependent on both.

Originally Posted by Greedy businesses that hire illegals

So, Ken Hayashi has 317 acres of cabbage that need weeding and harvesting, if 80% of the men who show up to work are illegals, he is greedy?

That depends on what the work conditions are and how much he's offering for compensation. How is it that major farm belt states like Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska can profitably bring in the crops without illegal labor, but California can't? Ditto with vegetable and fruit farming in the Northeast? Is it really that America is dependent on illegal labor, or is it just that the sunbelt states have subverted a work environment that was previously amenable to a citizen workforce into an underground black market that exploits the most desperate and is just one notch above slavery?
Anyway, agricultural labor is not the major employer of illegals. The construction trades are. You can't tell me there aren't enough Americans who want to be tilers, roofers and framers. It's all about economic exploitation for substandard wages and conditions. And do you think illegal construction labor makes California homes any cheaper for the end mortgage holder? Hah! It just lines the pockets of greedy developers.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by nmnita

certainly none of us have all the answers, but what you suggest should be addressed asap.

Here are the areas that need to be addressed:

Greedy businesses that hire illegals
Greedy landlords who rent to illegals
our government, for not doing enough to secure the borders
families that welcome illegals into their homes
no government assistanace except in the case of medical for a true emergancy: life and death situations.

Crack down on all the above and our problem would be only 1/2 as bad or less.

For those who keep saying, but they add to the argriculture economy. Do you really think there are not Americans that would pick if needed? The produce would go from farm to market without illegals.

Nita

Well, for better of for worse, I think you and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to this nita. I'm with you on every bolded point, those things have to be addressed.

As far as Americans willing to pick, it doesn't seem as common as we may think, at least according to news reports. Like I mentioned earlier, there are farms in central Ca. that have never had an American apply. Of course, that's just in Ca.