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Yes, says you.
My beliefs are based on research, too. But I have come to different conclussions than you. Hey, isn't it "what's right for you" and "what's right for me"?, right?
I guess what's "right for me" isn't as important as "what's right for you". And here we see the problem with relativism. Relativism doesn't mix well with elitism.
Why not answer any of my questions? Who decides what's "right" and "wrong"? That one should not be too hard for you to answer. We can start with that.
When what is right for you denies people the same equal rights that you have, then what you "believe" to be right, is biased and unfair. My having the same marriage rights does not take any rights away from you, but you and others want to assure them selves that they only enjoy those rights and gays can take the back of the bus. I refuse to let anyone push me into a niche or to discriminate against me. I exist and all of the god fearing people need to get used to it. I for one do not think the church should make the call as to who can get married, adopt or receive the 1049 plus/minus federal rights. Unless you were born after 1968, you should remember that the concept of interracial marriage was left up the white man to decide, as if a white man was more qualified than any other race to make that decision. I am just as much a human as you are and should not have to wait for my equal rights. I think I remember you saying your marriage would have been one denied before Loving verses Virginia. Do you think it was right to deny opposite races the opportunity to marry because of the majority rule? Where do you think your marriage would be today if it was not for the decision on Loving verses Virginia?
When what is right for you denies people the same equal rights that you have, then what you "believe" to be right, is biased and unfair. My having the same marriage rights does not take any rights away from you, but you and others want to assure them selves that they only enjoy those rights and gays can take the back of the bus. I refuse to let anyone push me into a niche or to discriminate against me. I exist and all of the god fearing people need to get used to it. I for one do not think the church should make the call as to who can get married, adopt or receive the 1049 plus/minus federal rights. Unless you were born after 1968, you should remember that the concept of interracial marriage was left up the white man to decide, as if a white man was more qualified than any other race to make that decision. I am just as much a human as you are and should not have to wait for my equal rights. I think I remember you saying your marriage would have been one denied before Loving verses Virginia. Do you think it was right to deny opposite races the opportunity to marry because of the majority rule? Where do you think your marriage would be today if it was not for the decision on Loving verses Virginia?
You have the same equal rights that I have. Any man can marry any woman, and any woman can marry any man. That right exists for everyone. What is being asked for is a new right, which did not previously exist.
My two points are this:
1) Some (most?) view homosexual marriage to be immoral (you can agree or disagree, that is not my point... my point is that it is what people believe). It is against God (I understand, you don't believe in God). People believe homosexual marriage defiles the sanctity of the marriage concept. Like I said, agree or disagree--I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to explain why some are against homosexual marriage.
2) The arguement for homosexual mariage is a slippery slope, the end of which is total and complete relativism (lawlessness or no moral code). At some point someone or something throws relativism in the trash and determines what is "right" and what is "wrong". Who decides? How do they decide?
I mean, we could legalize any number of things that are currently illegal. Someone decided that those things are illegal and gave a reason. And someone continues to decide that those things will continue to be illegal and gives a reason.
BTW, it is not "the church" who made those decisions.
I'm sorry that something you want a right to you currently do not. I'm sure druggies would like a right to cocaine (who are they hurting?).
Who makes those decisions? Society? God? You? Who? And why?
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 9,683,178 times
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Quote:
The arguement for homosexual mariage is a slippery slope, the end of which is total and complete relativism (lawlessness or no moral code). At some point someone or something throws relativism in the trash and determines what is "right" and what is "wrong". Who decides? How do they decide?
As I pointed out earlier, relativism is as common in Christianity as it is elsewhere. Marriage is a politico/religious structure imposed by governments and religions, it has no absolute value world wide, it is a construct to control, like much of our society.
And yes, why shouldn't druggies use cocaine? After all, drugs are an inherent part of our culture, who got to say that alcohol and nicotine are the good drugs and all the others are the bad drugs, that is just plain nuts.
If I want to marry my dog, how does that harm you or society?
You see Ritchie, you see absolutes, yet, there are no absolutes. There are things in our culture that are reprehensible to people in other cultures, yet you want to say that our cultural mores are absolute.
For a simple thing, do you wear shoes in church? That in a few other cultures is reprehensible.
Now, you are likely to say that your JudeoChristian tradition is the right religion and all others are false, so, tell me how you feel about Mormons.
As I pointed out earlier, relativism is as common in Christianity as it is elsewhere. Marriage is a politico/religious structure imposed by governments and religions, it has no absolute value world wide, it is a construct to control, like much of our society.
And yes, why shouldn't druggies use cocaine? After all, drugs are an inherent part of our culture, who got to say that alcohol and nicotine are the good drugs and all the others are the bad drugs, that is just plain nuts.
If I want to marry my dog, how does that harm you or society?
You see Ritchie, you see absolutes, yet, there are no absolutes. There are things in our culture that are reprehensible to people in other cultures, yet you want to say that our cultural mores are absolute.
For a simple thing, do you wear shoes in church? That in a few other cultures is reprehensible.
Now, you are likely to say that your JudeoChristian tradition is the right religion and all others are false, so, tell me how you feel about Mormons.
You keep wanting to talk about "the church". Nobody is perfect, and so no church is perfect. I'd be happy to talk about "the church" in a different thread and in a different forum.
I see "absolutes" because without them, anything goes. And if anything goes, there is no law, no justice, no personal property, and, by having every right, you have no rights. There is a reason why there are laws and rules and a general universal understanding of basic "right" and "wrong". Like I said, relativism only goes so far. Eventually everyone is victimized by it--when someone's "right for them" intrudes on my "right for me". Relativism with elitism brings oppression.
I've asked you questions over and over, yet you refuse to answer them. Why? Please go back and answer them, because they are important to this discussion. If you refuse, I can't argue further with you. I'll assume you are not capable of answering them.
BTW, I am fine with mormons (you are assuming I'm not a mormon).
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 9,683,178 times
Reputation: 2622
Quote:
You keep wanting to talk about "the church". Nobody is perfect, and so no church is perfect. I'd be happy to talk about "the church" in a different thread and in a different forum.
Really? Where have I mentioned any "church"?
Your faith is as relativisitic as the rest of society, I have pointed out several example which you have ignored.
There are no absolutes, you see absolutes, but they are not, and indeed, depending on the culture, anything goes. There is little general universal understanding of basic right and wrong.
Two examples.
Modern American culture considers two men fighting to the death as a form of entertainment, "wrong" to the Romans, it was just afternoon entertainment.
In New Guinea, up until very recently, it was part of their culture, to kill any stranger they came across, our culture considers that wrong.
Quote:
Relativism with elitism brings oppression
This statement has zero validity.
Quote:
BTW, I am fine with mormons (you are assuming I'm not a mormon)
Thank you for pointing out the relativism of Christianity. You are a Christian and you are fine with Mormons, yet other Christians see them as a false cult following a false prophet. Even your parenthetical phrase, "you are assuming I'm not a mormon". Mormons are Christians to some Christians, but they are not Christians to other Christians. Ditto with Catholics.
How about speaking in tongues, do you see that as god's work, or satan's work?
You say you don't know how anyone could be against gay marriage. I will tell you why I am against it. You can feel free to disagree or tell me why I'm wrong or how something isn't logical. That is fair and you are welcome to do that. I will accept your criticism, and, if compelled, answer back.
The reason I am against homosexual marriage is because I believe marriage is holy, created and ordained by God, as one man and one woman joined as one flesh forever.
You don't need me to tell you this is illogical. I am curious about some things.
Did you believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus as a child?
If you did and think they are fictitious now as an adult, then have you considered that stories about people rising from the dead and parting oceans could be fictitious as well?
If you believe that your religion (or any religion) is the one true religion than all other ones must be false. Do you think that you have the right religion and the other 5/6 of the earths population have it wrong? What makes your religion the true one? Because your parents told you it was so? Have you questioned this?
Your statement shows exactly why religion is dangerous. Like the judge in the Loving v. Virgina case, you find it acceptable to discriminate against people because you believe that is what your god wants. You don't have to use any logic, just that god said so.
So long as consenting adults are not infringing on the rights of others, they should be allowed to engage the activities they want to.
You should be able to worship Jesus, Allah or a head of cabbage if you want. That is your right, and you aren't violating my rights by doing so. When you deny different races or the same sex from marrying "because that is what god wants" then you are infringing on those peoples rights and have crossed the line.
You have the same equal rights that I have. Any man can marry any woman, and any woman can marry any man. That right exists for everyone. What is being asked for is a new right, which did not previously exist.
My two points are this:
1) Some (most?) view homosexual marriage to be immoral (you can agree or disagree, that is not my point... my point is that it is what people believe). It is against God (I understand, you don't believe in God). People believe homosexual marriage defiles the sanctity of the marriage concept. Like I said, agree or disagree--I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to explain why some are against homosexual marriage.
2) The arguement for homosexual mariage is a slippery slope, the end of which is total and complete relativism (lawlessness or no moral code). At some point someone or something throws relativism in the trash and determines what is "right" and what is "wrong". Who decides? How do they decide?
I mean, we could legalize any number of things that are currently illegal. Someone decided that those things are illegal and gave a reason. And someone continues to decide that those things will continue to be illegal and gives a reason.
BTW, it is not "the church" who made those decisions.
I'm sorry that something you want a right to you currently do not. I'm sure druggies would like a right to cocaine (who are they hurting?).
Who makes those decisions? Society? God? You? Who? And why?
Who is to decide what is or is not immoral, you, me, the church, government. Morality is a personal choice, not something to be made into law. It is not equal to tell me that I have the right to marry the same as you do, when I am told I have to marry a woman. I am not attracted to women, why should I have to marry one. This excuse is the exact same one used the by the state of Virginia to exclude marriage to the couple Mildred and Perry Loving. The state said that they each had the same exact equal right to marriage as every other citizen of their state because they all had the same right to marry the one they love, as long as that person was of the same race. So what of those that wanted to marry the one they loved, but that person was of another race? They could not get married, bottom line. It is the same with gays and lesbians, we are expected to marry someone of the opposite sex, even though we do not love that person, or find them sexually attractive. We are expected to lie to that woman or man and to society, pretend we are straight, act straight, have kids and lie to them too. The biggest lie is the one that that poor soul is lying too all the time, them selves. You call that being moral. And this ridiculous slippery slope, I have never heard of a lesbian going after a horse or a gay man going after a dog or a sheep, it is always a straight woman with a male horse or a straight man with a ewe or a female dog. Maybe straight marriage should be banned since it may lead to marrying ones dog, or horse, you know how those straight people just cannot keep their pants on for one minute. Comparing gays to druggies? Really now, there is no comparison there dude.
You don't need me to tell you this is illogical. I am curious about some things.
Did you believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus as a child?
If you did and think they are fictitious now as an adult, then have you considered that stories about people rising from the dead and parting oceans could be fictitious as well?
If you believe that your religion (or any religion) is the one true religion than all other ones must be false. Do you think that you have the right religion and the other 5/6 of the earths population have it wrong? What makes your religion the true one? Because your parents told you it was so? Have you questioned this?
Your statement shows exactly why religion is dangerous. Like the judge in the Loving v. Virgina case, you find it acceptable to discriminate against people because you believe that is what your god wants. You don't have to use any logic, just that god said so.
So long as consenting adults are not infringing on the rights of others, they should be allowed to engage the activities they want to.
You should be able to worship Jesus, Allah or a head of cabbage if you want. That is your right, and you aren't violating my rights by doing so. When you deny different races or the same sex from marrying "because that is what god wants" then you are infringing on those peoples rights and have crossed the line.
I think this is logical. Do you?
My older brother believes that only christians will be allowed in heaven. I asked him what happens to everyone else and he said that they are all false believers and will not be allowed entrance. He also told me that he hates the church for making him hate himself for being gay. He has tormented himself over this and has destroyed his life over it, even getting married twice to try and be straight and thus divorced twice. All because he was told that god said so. The bible was created to subjugate the masses.
Your faith is as relativisitic as the rest of society, I have pointed out several example which you have ignored.
There are no absolutes, you see absolutes, but they are not, and indeed, depending on the culture, anything goes. There is little general universal understanding of basic right and wrong.
Two examples.
Modern American culture considers two men fighting to the death as a form of entertainment, "wrong" to the Romans, it was just afternoon entertainment.
In New Guinea, up until very recently, it was part of their culture, to kill any stranger they came across, our culture considers that wrong.
This statement has zero validity.
Thank you for pointing out the relativism of Christianity. You are a Christian and you are fine with Mormons, yet other Christians see them as a false cult following a false prophet. Even your parenthetical phrase, "you are assuming I'm not a mormon". Mormons are Christians to some Christians, but they are not Christians to other Christians. Ditto with Catholics.
How about speaking in tongues, do you see that as god's work, or satan's work?
Who says I am "Christian"? You. Did I say that? Maybe I am mormon. You are making a number of assumptions, which may or may not be true. (But you're convinced they're true... and you could never be wrong, nah. You're too good to be wrong....).
I did not bring up "the church". I brought up "God". They are two different things. You seem to think they are one-in-the-same. "The church" is fallible, "God" is not. We can discuss "church" and "Christianity" if you wish in a different thread in a different forum.
I see that "anything goes". Relativism. It's great until you get burned by it. And you will, no question. Yes, you will. No question. But, hey--live and let live. It's super groovy!
I have not ignored your questions or statements. I have answered many of them. You have yet to answer a single question I have asked. I guess you are not capable (remember, that is what I said I would assume if you didn't. And you didn't).
Honestly, my post was in response to the question: "how could anyone be against gay marriage?" I said "how" and gave two reasons. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, except that there are legitimate reasons for some (most?) people to be against it.
Seems like someone has a chip on their shoulder regarding "the church" and "God" and especially "Christianity". I'm sorry to hear that. I don't doubt that you have good reasons for it. Maybe some day you'll find a way to "let it go".
You don't need me to tell you this is illogical. I am curious about some things.
Did you believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus as a child?
If you did and think they are fictitious now as an adult, then have you considered that stories about people rising from the dead and parting oceans could be fictitious as well?
If you believe that your religion (or any religion) is the one true religion than all other ones must be false. Do you think that you have the right religion and the other 5/6 of the earths population have it wrong? What makes your religion the true one? Because your parents told you it was so? Have you questioned this?
Your statement shows exactly why religion is dangerous. Like the judge in the Loving v. Virgina case, you find it acceptable to discriminate against people because you believe that is what your god wants. You don't have to use any logic, just that god said so.
So long as consenting adults are not infringing on the rights of others, they should be allowed to engage the activities they want to.
You should be able to worship Jesus, Allah or a head of cabbage if you want. That is your right, and you aren't violating my rights by doing so. When you deny different races or the same sex from marrying "because that is what god wants" then you are infringing on those peoples rights and have crossed the line.
I think this is logical. Do you?
I see you like to look down your nose. You seem to assume I am stupid first and a sheep second. I see elitist attitudes runs pretty rampant on here.
I do not need to explain to you how I came to believe what I do and why, just like you do not need to explain that to me. You are sure what you believe is true based an a number of things. It's the same with me. We may even look at the same thing and come to opposite conclusions. Life is funny that way.
Here is a question: how can someone infringe on a right that doesn't exist? Doesn't the right have to exist first before it can be infringed on?
The right doesn't exist. It does not exist in this country and in most of the world. It may one day. Who knows? But right now there is no right to be infringed upon. (So, no, I don't think your statement is logical).
Who is standing in the way of that desired "right"? Isn't California majority Democrate/Liberal? Isn't the House, Senate (with a super-majority) and White House Democrat/Liberal? What is stopping you from getting that "right"?
Maybe relativism isn't as popular as some would have us believe.
So who decides what is "right" and "wrong"?
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