Northern California (Sacramento, Bakersfield, Santa Rosa: living, farmer, areas)

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Highnlite

He also demonstrates what could be best described as "half knowledge" for instance, his statement that Virginia oaks were used for Clipper ship masts. Actually, Oaks were used for the base, a sailing ship mast was made of several logs, bound together at the connection by iron bands, the wood used for the upper reaches was usually yellow pine.

No half knowledge. I said specifically that the oaks on my property were used for Clipper ship masts. Again you incorrectly "inferred" something incorrectly, in this case that it only took one oak to make a mast. Since such masts were over 150' in height, of course they would require more than one of this type of tree. However, it would make sense to use the tallest hardwood trees available at the time within reasonable proximity of a port (in this case along the Potomac), which would have included these.

You can go on and on about the size of trees in California but you still haven't proven that Virginia trees are "tiny" in comparison. Also, you mention sycamore, which are also quite common and quite large in Eastern forests. For your and others' edification you can find some VA "tiny" tree pics here:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q...w=1003&bih=354

Trees aside you still haven't cited a reputable source who will say that the Bay Area is not part, and indeed the most important part, of Northern California. As they used to say, you're talkin' through yur hat about that.

[californio sur]

The issue of the borders of Northern California is much larger than some are suggesting. It is not uncommon to consider Kern county\ northern Santa Barbara county northward as Northern California. It may seem strange but many Californians consider southern California as strictly those counties south of the Tehachapi mountains. Certainly the Bay Area is part of northern California and when Central California is designated as a separate region from northern and southern California, the Bay Area is still identified as northern California.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by californio sur

The issue of the borders of Northern California is much larger than some are suggesting. It is not uncommon to consider Kern county\ northern Santa Barbara county northward as Northern California. It may seem strange but many Californians consider southern California as strictly those counties south of the Tehachapi mountains. Certainly the Bay Area is part of northern California and when Central California is designated as a separate region from northern and southern California, the Bay Area is still identified as northern California.

Exactly

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by californio sur

The issue of the borders of Northern California is much larger than some are suggesting. It is not uncommon to consider Kern county\ northern Santa Barbara county northward as Northern California. It may seem strange but many Californians consider southern California as strictly those counties south of the Tehachapi mountains. Certainly the Bay Area is part of northern California and when Central California is designated as a separate region from northern and southern California, the Bay Area is still identified as northern California.

Yes traditionally the Tehachapis were considered the dividing line. Of course back in those times there wasn't a whole lot of population in between there and Monterey or Sacramento so it didn't matter much, just as there aren't many folks in the area Highnlite defines as Northern California. As a compromise we could divide the state into three regions, Southern, Northern, and Even More Northern (but irrelevant). Some might add a fourth, which would be Central. I have no problem with that.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

Yes traditionally the Tehachapis were considered the dividing line. Of course back in those times there wasn't a whole lot of population in between there and Monterey or Sacramento so it didn't matter much, just as there aren't many folks in the area Highnlite defines as Northern California. As a compromise we could divide the state into three regions, Southern, Northern, and Even More Northern (but irrelevant). Some might add a fourth, which would be Central. I have no problem with that.

The northern and southern definitions keep it simple. If one were to devide california up geographically and culturally, you could have as many as seven different regions: Southern California (up to Kern and Santa Maria Co.), Central Coast (Santa Maria to Santa Cruz Co.), Central Valley (Self explanatory), Sierras( Complicated), North Coast(Mendocino to Del Norte Co.), Bay Area (the nine counties the touch the bay) and "Klamath"( That Shasta, Siskyou, Trinity area).

Edit: Santa Maria should be Santa Barbara LOL

[Highnlite]

Your task would be made easier if you can successfully apply the French term "Pays".

Now back to Cava

No half knowledge. I said specifically that the oaks on my property were used for Clipper ship masts. Again you incorrectly "inferred" something incorrectly, in this case that it only took one oak to make a mast. Since such masts were over 150' in height, of course they would require more than one of this type of tree. However, it would make sense to use the tallest hardwood trees available at the time within reasonable proximity of a port (in this case along the Potomac), which would have included these.

Apparently you missed the part about the yellow pine, there was a sound reason, actually two, why oak was not used in the upper sections. Learning stuff is so fun eh!? Wanna know the reasons?

You can go on and on about the size of trees in California but you still haven't proven that Virginia trees are "tiny" in comparison. Also, you mention sycamore, which are also quite common and quite large in Eastern forests. For your and others' edification you can find some VA "tiny" tree pics here:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q...w=1003&bih=354

Sadly, the photos of your giant trees did not come up.
The tallest tree in Virginia is 158 feet tall, not considered tall out here, I had to remove 4 200 foot, planted, monterey pine a couple of years ago and they were not the tallest, planted trees on the ranch.

If the largest tree east of the Mississippi is only about 5,000 cubic feet, then we can assume that the average tree in Virginia is much smaller. Even that tree would only give about 40 cords.

Trees aside you still haven't cited a reputable source who will say that the Bay Area is not part, and indeed the most important part, of Northern California. As they used to say, you're talkin' through yur hat about that.

Why yes Cava, I have cited a reputable source, me, and I have explained carefully why the Bay Area is not part of Northern California in a Geographic/cultural sense, you reject the simple evidence in favor a look at political boundaries. Another term for a good sized chunk of North California is the State of Jefferson, and Hank Williams was certainly not speaking of the Bay area in his song about the survival of rednecks when he cojoined North California and South Alabam.

You need to expand your envelope, allow new thinking in, getting educated should be an exciting time.

[CAVA1990]

Highnlite, maybe we should take the clipper ship construction over to the history forum as the intricacies of yellow pine top spars is probably of limited interest here. Also, I totally support your right to espouse your definition of California geography. But come on, do you really want to call it the state of Jefferson? That name doesn't have a real great track record. Just ask the folks in Colorado. Also, it's not all that appropriate as Jefferson had nothing to do with that area of the country. You should call it something more relevant to the history of the territory like Fremont, Kearny, or Polk.

I do have to ask if you're in some way connected with the cute gal holding the big pine cone.

[Highnlite]

Highnlite, maybe we should take the clipper ship construction over to the history forum as the intricacies of yellow pine top spars is probably of limited interest here.

Caroline Yellow Pine.

Also, I totally support your right to espouse your definition of California geography.

It is not my definition, #3 daughter had her first class at Cal Poly today, Cultural Geography, a great textbook comes with the class that will explain the whole thing to you. You should be able to find a Cultural Geography text book on line. Cultural Geography is why there is West Virginia.

But come on, do you really want to call it the state of Jefferson? That name doesn't have a real great track record. Just ask the folks in Colorado.

Again, not my name; It very nearly became an actual State, and there are folks that claim all the paperwork was done, and it is a State; Jefferson - The 51st State - Northern California / Southern Oregon - A State of Mind

Also, it's not all that appropriate as Jefferson had nothing to do with that area of the country. You should call it something more relevant to the history of the territory like Fremont, Kearny, or Polk.

I do have to ask if you're in some way connected with the cute gal holding the big pine cone. No, I do not know her, those sugar pine cones can kill a man when they come down off a tree from 200 feet up in the air. When I logged, and worked for the Forest Service, we wore hard hats, even during lunch time in the sugar pine stands.

...

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Highnlite

.Cultural Geography is why there is West Virginia...

Not really. Political shenanigans combined with union occupation is why there's West Virginia. It's not even clear whether a majority of the local populace supported its creation. A bogus Virginia government constituted by unionists here in Alexandria allowed their secession, which would otherwise have been unconstitutional without Virginia's permission. Granted there were quite a few folks who came into the territory from PA, but there were at least an equal if not greater number who migrated from the counties of current VA to secure new farmland after the old land wore out. They were culturally very much Virginians.

Now back to Northern California.

[Highnlite]

No, it was a classic example of cultural geography.
Social conditions were considerably different between the east and the west
Small farmer subsistence vs large scale cash crop farming.
Scots Irish and Germans vs English
Ohio Mississippi River commerce vs Atlantic coastal commerce
Difficulty of travel over the hills (I know you easterners like to call them Mountains, but, I don't.)

The split between East Virginia and West Virginia was and is, a classic example of cultural geography.