State pensions cost each resident $3000 per year (Los Angeles, San Francisco: calculation, incomes)

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by GregHenry

All in all, your response to my post was quite weak and left me in full possession of the field. Again, you brazenly think that I envy that which you took from me.

Actually, all it left you were your cranky delusions!

[Captjob]

Originally Posted by GregHenry

Common sense, Indeed. Government employees are not truly taxed, as they just return a portion of their salary to the same people who gave it to them, making any tax on their wages nothing but an illusion.

You also ignored the inescapable economic fact that public sector employees do not create wealth. They live on wealth created by others.

And don't try to claim some moral authority for your monopolies. I'm forced to use certain services, being deprived of any choice or consent in using yours. I'd eliminate most or all of your jobs, departments, commissions and functions.

All in all, your response to my post was quite weak and left me in full possession of the field. Again, you brazenly think that I envy that which you took from me.

Wow Greg, you are truly missing the fact that you could not "create wealth" or wealth for yourself without government.

I know in a perfect world one would be believe that "no government" is the answer; however, the interrelation between private "wealth creators" and government go hand in hand. You may not like paying taxes to any government agency but it is those very taxes that provide you with the means to operate everyday. What magical country do you desire to live in?

I must ask how are you getting to work everyday? What road network would you use, how would you know when to stop for oncoming traffic without working traffic lights engineered by government safety officials? What utilities are you going to use? Do you drive a safe vehicle engineered with safety features mandated by government? Are your possessions protected by a police and fire force ready to give their life so you can continue to create wealth in any way you choose? Are your employee educated by the public school system? Hmmmm... I wonder.

Do you really create wealth for others or is it all about you? My simple point being we are ALL interrelated.

I am not only a local government safety employee but I also own and run a business on the side. I have a workforce, I make a payroll, pay wages and all related taxes and workers comp insurance as required, have a business license and pay to the franchise tax board as well as other related taxing bodies and don't always feel its fair either; however, I could not operate at all without government services or employees. Its impossible to separate the relationship.

Personally I love having a professional, well paid government workforce because yes, they are also my customers. They come in every day and purchase from me and if they spend money they earned while I was taxed then the monetary cycle is now complete. It's ok with me. It went out and right back in.

Trying to imagine a world without a huge consumer base such as those same government employees and their retirees that provide a service that you could not provide yourself is ludicrous for a business owner. What are you going to do just wait for those living on social security and all the minimum wage earners to help you further your wealth creation within your own business?

We each depend on each other.

[wellyouknow]

Captjob, the difference is that the government works off the taken wealth that was created prior by the private market in the form of taxes, it works off forcefully expropriated (neccessarily sometimes) money rather than voluntary and free exchange of goods and capital.

It uses wealth to fund necessary and unnecessary regulation, but I don't see how it creates it originally. Railroads were privately built, freeways too were built using tax money which are generated by the private business. National parks and environmental regulations, yes I give you that, that was a welcome regulation as far as I am concerned, but the don't really create wealth, do they? The welfare? The social security? The medicare? The prisons? The military doesn't create any wealth either, and we as a country are punching way above our weight with the DOD spending.

How any of these CREATE wealth?

[Captjob]

Originally Posted by wellyouknow

Captjob, the difference is that the government works off the taken wealth that was created prior by the private market in the form of taxes, it works off forcefully expropriated (neccessarily sometimes) money rather than voluntary and free exchange of goods and capital.

It uses wealth to fund necessary and unnecessary regulation, but I don't see how it creates it originally. Railroads were privately built, freeways too were built using tax money which are generated by the private business. National parks and environmental regulations, yes I give you that, that was a welcome regulation as far as I am concerned, but the don't really create wealth, do they? The welfare? The social security? The medicare? The prisons? The military doesn't create any wealth either, and we as a country are punching way above our weight with the DOD spending.

How any of these CREATE wealth?

Yes, government does not create wealth. But without any of these in place, you can NOT create wealth yourself. Any wealth. You would live in a society of anarchy and those with wealth become the aristocrats and then you become the "beheaded class" for their wealth. (A tale of two cities)

Not everyone in a society is or can be a wealth creator. In order to create wealth you need customers and spenders i.e people. The world can not be all comprised of business owners and no customers can it. The US government is one of the largest spenders for private business all over the world.

Yes their are some unnecessary regulations most of which I am not very fond of, especially in Taxifornia but the only way to separate necessary from unnecessary government regulation is through your vote.

If I could choose how my tax dollar was spent then this state would look a whole lot different. The government services that were necessary however would be the best in the world for my tax dollar...no exception.
I am proud to be part of a county that has the best military in the world and I would never waiver on that.

We are free to create our own wealth; however this freedom does come with a price and for the most part I am willing to pay it.

[Phil306]

Here is what I don't get: All these people here anti-state pensions, etc. You realize Jerry Brown started them and still supports them? So did every other politician in Sacramento. Not too mention, none of you complaining said a word, when these pensions were started, how they were funded, etc. Not a peep; not a word. Why? The money was flowing in. All kinds of money in this state and no one cared. Now all of a sudden it's an issue. Why didn't you scream THEN?

Not too mention, you are going to re-elect the architect of the pension system, tomorrow????

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Phil306

Not too mention, you are going to re-elect the architect of the pension system, tomorrow????

Ironic, ain't it? Then y'all get ta listen ta them whine for the next four+ years.

Too funny; especially from a safe distance after we got ours!

[GregHenry]

Originally Posted by Captjob

Wow Greg, you are truly missing the fact that you could not "create wealth" or wealth for yourself without government.

That paternalistic arrogance is flatly untrue, a fallacious false premise, and the reason the country is in the miserable shape it is, today.

All I need is a buyer for what I sell, and I will buy what another sells. The true market is free and voluntary. We need no transaction costs or parasites feeding off our labors.

[Phil306]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Ironic, ain't it? Then y'all get ta listen ta them whine for the next four+ years.

Too funny; especially from a safe distance after we got ours!

Yes sir. And guess what race fans? You anti pension people? Right now, as I am typing this, there are probably close to 100 extra San Francisco PD Officers on duty, ON OVERTIME, and another 100 San Francisco Firefighters on duty, ON OVERTIME, for the great World Series being played. Not too mention all the other city workers on OVERTIME. Not just now, but standby if they win. Days and weeks of partying and guess what? YOUR tax dollar is going to be paying for a police officer to spend three weeks in Italy; like I just did. Then come next year, when the incomes are released to the public, you will all cry and whine like babies. Right now your are drinking it up, partying it up. Next year, you will be stamping your feet, holding your breath until you are blue, and having a temper tantrum. Me? I'll be one more year closer to collecting all that money you are going to pay.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by Captjob

Wow Greg, you are truly missing the fact that you could not "create wealth" or wealth for yourself without government.

I know in a perfect world one would be believe that "no government" is the answer; however, the interrelation between private "wealth creators" and government go hand in hand. You may not like paying taxes to any government agency but it is those very taxes that provide you with the means to operate everyday. What magical country do you desire to live in?

I must ask how are you getting to work everyday? What road network would you use, how would you know when to stop for oncoming traffic without working traffic lights engineered by government safety officials? What utilities are you going to use? Do you drive a safe vehicle engineered with safety features mandated by government? Are your possessions protected by a police and fire force ready to give their life so you can continue to create wealth in any way you choose? Are your employee educated by the public school system? Hmmmm... I wonder.

Do you really create wealth for others or is it all about you? My simple point being we are ALL interrelated.

I am not only a local government safety employee but I also own and run a business on the side. I have a workforce, I make a payroll, pay wages and all related taxes and workers comp insurance as required, have a business license and pay to the franchise tax board as well as other related taxing bodies and don't always feel its fair either; however, I could not operate at all without government services or employees. Its impossible to separate the relationship.

Personally I love having a professional, well paid government workforce because yes, they are also my customers. They come in every day and purchase from me and if they spend money they earned while I was taxed then the monetary cycle is now complete. It's ok with me. It went out and right back in.

Trying to imagine a world without a huge consumer base such as those same government employees and their retirees that provide a service that you could not provide yourself is ludicrous for a business owner. What are you going to do just wait for those living on social security and all the minimum wage earners to help you further your wealth creation within your own business?

We each depend on each other.

Believe it or not... I know someone that lives in a cabin he built and earns his money gold prospecting... there isn't a traffic light, road, police, fire or any other government services for miles...

Maybe Alaska is that magical land?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Believe it or not... I know someone that lives in a cabin he built and earns his money gold prospecting... there isn't a traffic light, road, police, fire or any other government services for miles...

Maybe Alaska is that magical land?

Got summa that thar stuff here in the Aux Arcs too!