Is California A Lost Cause? (Fresno, Chula Vista: loan, incomes, income tax)

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by Hwy phantom

I wonder how many illegals voted for the democrats...they probably helped shift the election in a big way.

From 2003-2006 Karl Rove & the Bush administration spent over $8 billion of tax payer money looking for voter fraud which he claimed was rampant. After all that time and all that public money spent he didn't find a single example of voter fraud.

Does it exist? Yeah, I'm sure if we really, really looked there would be a couple of examples but it sure won't add up to enough to swing an election. If there was that much out there to be found then Bush's jihad on voter fraud would have turned up something instead of a goose egg. The reality is illegals don't want to be found by the government so telling the government who they are and where they live (remember you also have to provide a SSI number which matches your name and your picture ID) by registering to vote is just not something most illegals would do. Being illegal means you want to be under the radar so they don't often put up big red flags for everyone to see.

[Hwy phantom]

Originally Posted by Oerdin

From 2003-2006 Karl Rove & the Bush administration spent over $8 billion of tax payer money looking for voter fraud which he claimed was rampant. After all that time and all that public money spent he didn't find a single example of voter fraud.

Does it exist? Yeah, I'm sure if we really, really looked there would be a couple of examples but it sure won't add up to enough to swing an election. If there was that much out there to be found then Bush's jihad on voter fraud would have turned up something instead of a goose egg. The reality is illegals don't want to be found by the government so telling the government who they are and where they live (remember you also have to provide a SSI number which matches your name and your picture ID) by registering to vote is just not something most illegals would do. Being illegal means you want to be under the radar so they don't often put up big red flags for everyone to see.

When you say they want to be "under the radar" is that true for when they apply for jobs, government assistance, car loans, home loans, receiving medical aid at the hospitals and sending their kids to public schools? My point is being illegal has never stopped them from doing all these other things.

[Hwy phantom]

Originally Posted by Oerdin

From 2003-2006 Karl Rove & the Bush administration spent over $8 billion of tax payer money looking for voter fraud which he claimed was rampant. After all that time and all that public money spent he didn't find a single example of voter fraud.

Does it exist? Yeah, I'm sure if we really, really looked there would be a couple of examples but it sure won't add up to enough to swing an election. If there was that much out there to be found then Bush's jihad on voter fraud would have turned up something instead of a goose egg. The reality is illegals don't want to be found by the government so telling the government who they are and where they live (remember you also have to provide a SSI number which matches your name and your picture ID) by registering to vote is just not something most illegals would do. Being illegal means you want to be under the radar so they don't often put up big red flags for everyone to see.

Also remember you're not required to even show photo id when voting.

[Hwy phantom]

Originally Posted by Charles

Might be exactly the opposite.

It might benefit illegal aliens to support republican big business cheap labor interests. Do you think Dole foods for example, wants to keep illegal aliens out of California?

I'm thinking more along the lines of government assistance, food stamps, WIC, and welfare.

[CarawayDJ]

Originally Posted by Oerdin

From 2003-2006 Karl Rove & the Bush administration spent over $8 billion of tax payer money looking for voter fraud which he claimed was rampant. After all that time and all that public money spent he didn't find a single example of voter fraud.

Does it exist? Yeah, I'm sure if we really, really looked there would be a couple of examples but it sure won't add up to enough to swing an election. If there was that much out there to be found then Bush's jihad on voter fraud would have turned up something instead of a goose egg. The reality is illegals don't want to be found by the government so telling the government who they are and where they live (remember you also have to provide a SSI number which matches your name and your picture ID) by registering to vote is just not something most illegals would do. Being illegal means you want to be under the radar so they don't often put up big red flags for everyone to see.

I gotta call you on the $8 billion thing. Link please...and hopefully from a somewhat unbiased site; if that's even possible nowadays.

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by Hwy phantom

When you say they want to be "under the radar" is that true for when they apply for jobs, government assistance, car loans, home loans, receiving medical aid at the hospitals and sending their kids to public schools? My point is being illegal has never stopped them from doing all these other things.

Nice talking points but again factually incorrect. No illegal directly gets any government assistance since you must prove citizenship when you apply, yes, the citizen children of illegals do qualify for some basic things like food stamps but I find it hard to blame a 6 year old child for something her parents did. As for the rest of your claims... Jobs & asking a bank for a loan are private companies, private companies who are often breaking the law, while illegals don't get the mythical free health care you think they do. Instead what happens is they show up at hospital emergency rooms where they legally can't be turned away, promise to pay, but a certain percentage do not actually pay their bills. Yes, I don't like that but it is hardly the welfare you're claiming it to be.

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by CarawayDJ

I gotta call you on the $8 billion thing. Link please...and hopefully from a somewhat unbiased site; if that's even possible nowadays.

Fair enough. I did some research and it is a bit hard to find the exact number after all these years but I did find some articles which support the over all thrust of the claim. BTW the whole partisan firing of US Attorneys scandal was also driven by Rove's attempts to claim there was out of control voter fraud; voter fraud which even Bush appointed US Attorneys across the entire US couldn't find a single example of.

Karl Rove's big election-fraud hoax - Republican Party - Salon.com

Karl Rove's Voter Fraud Fetish - Magazine - The Atlantic

Voter-Fraud Complaints by GOP Drove Dismissals - washingtonpost.com

Unfortunately, none of those articles I linked to actually list the price tag of the effort (most go over the background and then detail the political scandal), I am remembering the $8 billion figure from a news piece several years ago when the story was fresh, but if you think about it for a while having dedicated US Attorney staff in every major city for several years going through all the voter rolls and all the voting records in every state will amount to a lot of time and money. If you want we can fudge the exact amount and just agree that it was a substantial amount of money.

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by Hwy phantom

Also remember you're not required to even show photo id when voting.

Not true any more. By federal law you must have a state issued photo id in order to vote. Most states have had such a law for years though the Federal law came about in 2004 or 2006 (I forget which year) as part of Karl Rove's effort to ferret out supposed voter fraud.

I don't have a problem with that reform though because it makes sense that a voter should have to show his ID. It does show that it isn't all that easy for an illegal to vote so the fear mongering that "illegals are stealing elections" is just not true. If illegals vote it's certainly not happening in large numbers and if caught (which is likely since both parties religiously screen voter rolls to try to invalidate voter registrations in "blue" or "red" areas to try to kick out the other guy's voters) the penalties a pretty high.

[kanhawk]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

I voted for those people and Seattle is on my list of future homes. Guess you'll have to deal if I decide to move there.

well, I wasn't being totally serious and if you go move here I wish you luck, but I do find it frustrating that liberal Californians come to the Washington forums looking for a good 'liberal" community in Washington to move to. I don't want them importing the same thinking up here.
We have enough liberals as it is, but Washington also voted down a state income tax initiative in this last election, by a 2-1 margin! If more liberal Californians move up here, I am afraid Washington's days as one of the few states without an income tax are numbered.

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by Hwy phantom

I'm thinking more along the lines of government assistance, food stamps, WIC, and welfare.

That will, of course, vary from state to state but as a part of the Federal budget it isn't very large. The main costs are probably section 8 housing grants, food stamps, and WIC as actual cash welfare was reformed by Clinton so that it is very hard to qualify for and you're strictly limited to just two years of benefits out of a person's entire life.

As for Section 8 grants and food stamps... Yeah, that's redistribution as you called it but again the total price tag is a tiny part of the Federal budget (it certainly isn't much of a factor in the budget deficit compared to the truly large programs like SSI, medicare, or the military [which amount to 75% of the budget]). Section 8 grants are about $188 per month on average (TBRA Payments - Calculating Assistance Amount - Homefront - Training - Affordable Housing - CPD - HUD) going directly to landlords and it's mainly because people don't want kids to be homeless even if mom is an idiot. Same thing with food stamps; the total monthly benefit is very small and usually only kids or very old people qualify and most people are ok with making sure their neighbors don't starve. Certainly waste and fraud should be hunted down where ever possible, and most cities do a good job with that, but if you think things like food stamps are adding much to the budget deficit then I dispute that.

If we want to close a $1.2 trillion budget deficit we have to cut the really big budget items (SSI, Medicare, the military) or raise taxes. Sure, we can and likely will cut other programs but the little items won't add up to $1.2 trillion.