Jerry Brown: Taxes Need to Be Raised, Services Cut, Belts Tightened (San Jose: insurance, construction)

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Fighter 1

[/u][/b]Excuse Me But it has already started Just look around.

God knows I'm aware of that. Guess I should have added the qualifier, "more."

[.highnlite]

However, let us not cut from the welfare recepients; you know, the persons who have been getting money, straight up money, and have not paid one dime into the system?

Don't forget the Central Valley Farmers and their welfare water, and the public lands ranchers and miners, subsidized by us taxpayers for generations.

Start with rewriting the 1872 mining law so the miners pay us back for their free minerals.

Do you know how much money the State of California has gotten from all that oil that has been extracted for the past 100 years? A truly curious figure.

[jkbatca]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Don't forget the Central Valley Farmers and their welfare water, and the public lands ranchers and miners, subsidized by us taxpayers for generations.

I would like to expand on your "farmer welfare" theme a bit. What exactly is it about farmers that we allow wholesale disregard for immigration and labor laws for this group of people? Whenever someone brings up "we need to enforce immigration or labor laws", someone inevitably brings up "well the poor farmers won't have anyone to pick their crops and they will be idle".

Well, CA farmers in the valley are by and large idle now due to the delta smelt, so the same group of people who used to care about the farmers when illegals were involved are now the exact same group of people who don't give a rat's a$$ about them when it comes to the delta smelt. Hmmm....

Yeah, so if we're going to tell farmers to "pay up" for the water, at the exact same time, let's tell farmers to "pay up" for hiring pickers at federal minimum wage AND pay for their health care, just like we expect out of all other U.S. employers to do. No more flaunting of immigration laws for this precious group of employers. Otherwise, invest in some machines to automatically pick the crops, just like other industries automate. Or go out of business, as they are already doing now, thanks to the smelt.

[.highnlite]

Well, CA farmers in the valley are by and large idle now due to the delta smel

Nope, only those who began farming the west side after the completion of the California Aquaduct, if there are any others idle it is for other reasons than the smelt.

Remember too, that farmers do not hire their labor, their labor does come to them with all paper work in order.

It isn't that the poor farmers will be idle, if illegal labor was pulled from the fields it would crash the economy of California and turn dozens if not hundreds of towns into ghost towns. I don't think any of the anti immigration people have any idea of the economic consequences of getting rid of illegal labor by any other means than simply making the illegals legal.

Folks would look back on the economic condition of the state today as the good ole days. And as California goes, so goes the Union.

It is also wrong to think the illegals work for less than minimum wage, they average the same pay rate as Paramedics and Federal Wildfire suppression crews.

The crops that can be machine harvested are, as we know too well, machines are cheaper than hand work, starting with the Cesar Chavez strikes in the 70's the growers worked with UC Davis to mechanize the fields. You might drink machine harvested wine, Gallo, two buck chuck and other cheap wines, but you have yet to eat a machine picked strawberry, or head of cabbage.

The smelt did not drive the westside farmers out of business, depending on water allocated for Los Angeles was a big mistake. The State, and the Federal government has subsidized much of Central Valley Farming, based on Socialist Schemes first put into place in the West by the Spanish in New Mexico and then the Mormons in the Salt Lake Valley. These systems were expanded upon by "reclamation" services.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Well, you didn't skip over this one, now didja?

The right posts from belief not fact, I have a serious problem with people who put their emotions and their beliefs above data. Do your homework post factually, and you won't have to be reminded to do so.

This is too funny. Highnlite passes off his beliefs as "facts" all the time.

[.highnlite]

Challenge me, demand evidence, I am happy to oblige, the only reason you have a problem is that the reality based universe differs from the conservative dream world.

For you guys, it is basic psychology, you are a conservative because of the way you view the world, changing your view of the world, is far from impossible, but, it requires opening up to the reality based universe, and that is hard when everything you think and do is based on fear of change, which is the definition of a conservative.

[Reason42]

"...if you want an audience, start a fight..."

Remind anyone of...





On topic, I still only hope that more services are cut than taxes raised...

...but I have seen the people of California do some amazingly stupid things in the voting booth. I can only hope that they will learn from their errors, before I am forced to leave this state who's geography I smell, I breath, and I love...

[jkbatca]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Remember too, that farmers do not hire their labor, their labor does come to them with all paper work in order.

Slight semantic difference. Basically it's a contract between two parties, so the employer is part of the game. So the employer is responsible also.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

It isn't that the poor farmers will be idle, if illegal labor was pulled from the fields it would crash the economy of California and turn dozens if not hundreds of towns into ghost towns. I don't think any of the anti immigration people have any idea of the economic consequences of getting rid of illegal labor by any other means than simply making the illegals legal.

Based on what I'm reading, that's happening already in much of the valley, unless the Wall Street Journal is wrong. This is due to lack of water from what I'm reading, although things are changing as we speak and water allocations may be updated. One thing I'm also reading is about in-fighting among farmers in that valley area.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

It is also wrong to think the illegals work for less than minimum wage, they average the same pay rate as Paramedics and Federal Wildfire suppression crews.

If farmers are complying with federal and state labor laws, then they shouldn't worry. I'm only talking about the ones that aren't. You cannot convince me none of them are hiring under the table.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

The smelt did not drive the westside farmers out of business

Again, that's not what I'm reading but I'm not a farmer either.

[UB50]

On the pension issue for state employees: They need to quit including overtime, days off, vacation time, and every other form of non-salary $$$ when calculating pensions. That's part of what is putting this state in a hole.

I value police and firefighters but not so much that I want to pay them 100% of their previous "high year" paycheck in the form of a pension.

[TimC2462]

Originally Posted by UB50

On the pension issue for state employees: They need to quit including overtime, days off, vacation time, and every other form of non-salary $$$ when calculating pensions. That's part of what is putting this state in a hole.

I value police and firefighters but not so much that I want to pay them 100% of their previous "high year" paycheck in the form of a pension.

Pensions should be sustainable in a way that it is, what Jerry Brown said, fair to the taxpayers and fair to the state employees. When there is a poor economy like the one we are experiencing right now, everyone should be willing to make concessions in order save the state budget from going into the red.

I just have a huge problem when the top elite salary earners, whether they are from the private sector or public, are getting more than their fair share of the wealth at the expense of the poor and middle class. In the case of my local county government and the state government, public employees have received annual salary raises at the expense of their co-workers earning less and being laid off... and at the expense of taxpayers.