Labor's coming class warfare? (Oakland, Bell: contractors, taxes, most dangerous)

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by mateo45

So then, would you say that you're, um, "representative" of the public employees which the taxpayers of Cali have been supporting all these years (including their generous retirement)? If so, that's probably the most "persuasive" argument for "change"...

LOL! Nice shot across the bow, Surly. If I weren't such a nice guy I'd say something like, "Your response typifies the "fruits and nuts" portion of your location." But I am so I won't.

No, I'm not representative of the public employees. Most stay in line staff status throughout their careers and lack either the desire or the skills/ability to seek higher positions. I was not so hampered and spent most of my state career in in supervision and management. As such, I was not represented by any collective bargaining groups/unions.

You're right. "Tax payers" have funded my retirement. Chief among them was me. Not only did I pay quite a bit in taxes but I also made rather significant monthly contributions to my pension fund every month for 25 years. You idealogues seem to conveniently forget or choose to ignore that simple truth. Pity.

By the way, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that my pension is anything but munificent. Sorry I can't asssure that I'm destitute but I'm comfortable and nothing more.

Oh, yeah. Is it alright with you if I also draw some Social Security? After all, I did pay into it for 45 years.

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by mateo45

But isn't that kind of easy to say, for a self-professed former California public employee (recently retired), now that they're safely sucking on the Cali public teat.... from MO?! Of course if one were really that unhappy about receiving their "higher pension", I suppose they could always send us back a refund....

It's not Curmudgeon's fault he got a good deal. The blame lies with the politicians who gave the unions free hand. The root of the blame goes to the voters who elected those politicians, the voters who stood by and let the unions and their pet politicians lay waste to California's economy, and worse that they laid wast to California's future. The blame lies squarely on the voters.

The worst I can say is that I'm envious of Curmudgeon's fortunate circumstances. Don't forget that if California's financial situation gets bad enough they may default on paying retired public employees, and if that happens you can bet that Curmudgeon will not be a happy camper, not that I wish any misfortune on him. We'll all have to wait and see what California is going to do if the government defaults and I think that's not at all an unlikely scenario.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

It's not Curmudgeon's fault he got a good deal. The blame lies with the politicians who gave the unions free hand. The root of the blame goes to the voters who elected those politicians, the voters who stood by and let the unions and their pet politicians lay waste to California's economy, and worse that they laid wast to California's future. The blame lies squarely on the voters.

The worst I can say is that I'm envious of Curmudgeon's fortunate circumstances. Don't forget that if California's financial situation gets bad enough they may default on paying retired public employees, and if that happens you can bet that Curmudgeon will not be a happy camper, not that I wish any misfortune on him. We'll all have to wait and see what California is going to do if the government defaults and I think that's not at all an unlikely scenario.

Thank you. And if the state defaults on our pensions (my wife's as well), we can kiss our house goodbye and move into Section 8 housing or something equivalent while getting on Medicade as well as Medicare because our benefits would go too, probably lose some teeth because dental coverage would be gone as well and our Social Security wouldn't support dental bills or real decent accomodations. But hey! maybe we could move into a single-wide and that along with the missing teeth would make us REAL Ozarkers, right?

Of course, we hope Surly would invite us to the celebration he'd throw because of our losses. But he'd have to get us there and back too!

[hoffdano]

Originally Posted by TimC2462

I'm concerned with how some counties can abuse certain powers if the government is rewired or decentralized. I know there are some counties such as Santa Barbra and Monterey counties that have strong voter participation, while other counties do not. I know this is probably unfound, but the county I live in right now doesn't strong voter turnout.

I would be more concerned about abuses at the state level than abuses at the county or city. Mainly because the state level is more political, there is far more money to abuse, and they are further from the people that elected them.

Municipal governments surely abuse their power all across the US. But most of the time, the damage they cause is smaller, and it is easier to get them out of office when they screw. A clear example of local abuse was Bell and its massively overpaid officials. But they DID get exposed, and they will pay the price. Citizens must be vigilant and governments must be open.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by hoffdano

Citizens must be vigilant and governments must be open.

What? Hold the sheeple responsible and accountable for who and what they elect into office, and continue to reelect? Now ain't that a radical approach?

You bet! That's how it's supposed to be.

[sjnative]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

It's not Curmudgeon's fault he got a good deal. The blame lies with the politicians who gave the unions free hand. The root of the blame goes to the voters who elected those politicians, the voters who stood by and let the unions and their pet politicians lay waste to California's economy, and worse that they laid wast to California's future. The blame lies squarely on the voters.
.

It is partly Curmudgeon's fault, however infintesimal his apportion of fault may be. He chose to work for the state and he chose to be part of the union. Even if the former necessitates the latter, it was consequently his choice to be part of the latter.

Re the rest of your post, you conveniently forget the responsibility of the Union bosses, negotiators, etc. who played hardball with the State.

Instead of recognizing this, you put all the blame on the politicians and their electing voters.

Somehow that doesn't seem very realistic to me or, dare I say, fair.

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Much the same can be said of the American public in general, no?

Your bold statement, as general and obfuscative as it is, is distracting.

You're not acknowledging that in the private sector jobs where there are no unions, employees often just want to hold on to their jobs and in the past few years, many have been doing just that while taking pay reductions. For many, their medical and dental benefits have been reduced as well, leaving them to bear more of the cost of their medical and dental care.

More ever, many private sector employees couldn't even dream of retiring at 55 years of age and not with a pension almost equal to that of their highest pay rates- if they get a pension at all.

Public sector employees presume an entitlement to that very retirement package. They call it "retiring with dignity" which is transparently euphemistic.

You equate two bodies of the workforce who are vastly different.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by sjnative

It is partly Curmudgeon's fault, however infintesimal his apportion of fault may be. He chose to work for the state and he chose to be part of the union. Even if the former necessitates the latter, it was consequently his choice to be part of the latter.

Having a bit of a challenge with comprehension there, Sport?

What part of, "I was management and not a union member or represented by them" are you having a hard time understanding?

What part of union "fair share" provisions which require employees to either join or pay a couple of dollars less than dues (and I do mean "a couple of dollars) if you're going to work are you unable to wrap your mind around?

Consequently, you're quite wrong, as usual.

Let me try to 'splain it to you in elementary grade terms even you might understand.

As both a supervisor and then a manager, I could not be a member of a union, nor could I pay dues or make fair share payments. I was on my own without any collective bargaining "benefits." Capiche?

Oops! I used at least one, five-syllable word. Sorry for the challenge.

[.highnlite]

It's not Curmudgeon's fault he got a good deal

I wonder how often I will have to repeat this, before the joker who think retired state employees are skiing at Aspen.

The average retired state employee pension is less than $20,000 per year

Based on the amount of Bellyaching one would think that
1. Retired state employees drive Escalades, ski at Aspen and go to the beach at Tahiti
2. Some other people are really upset because they now realize they made some really bad career choices.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

I wonder how often I will have to repeat this, before the joker who think retired state employees are skiing at Aspen.

The average retired state employee pension is less than $20,000 per year

Based on the amount of Bellyaching one would think that
1. Retired state employees drive Escalades, ski at Aspen and go to the beach at Tahiti
2. Some other people are really upset because they now realize they made some really bad career choices.

Thank you, .highenlite. Kudos and a rep!

[.highnlite]

Why thank you.

Tough to figure out why all the bellyaching about pensions. It is interesting that the groups the uninformed belly ache the most about are teachers, police, and correctional officers, all of whom deserve a decent retirement to make up for the crap they put up with for so long.