4 knuckledraggers only! -- your adventures in California wilds? (Winchester: for sale, to move)

[.highnlite]

So long as first contact is NOT Viking, then first Native contact was with French fishing vessels with French fishermen and some few Scot

I have an alternative for you. For centuries before Columbus did his thing, the Basque fishing fleets left their homeland yearly, were gone for months and came back with hulls filled with cod. Their fishing grounds were kept secret, but were undoubtedly the Grand Banks etal.

The chances are great that the indians had some commerce with the Basque

And.... the weaponry used against the indians by the English would have been about the same as used against the Irish, the English felt about the indians roughly the same as felt about the Irish.

[Mac_Muz]

Highnlite, That could be but then there is 0 documentation. There is ruhmor on ruhmor. There IS documentable Viking evidence and oddly right up the Missisp and into Arkansas. There IS ruins not native off the White River in Ar. There is tons of evidence in Mass, and Maine plus Newfoundland NS, and labrador. The problem is was there trade? There sure was violence.

No trade happens once violence starts.

Columbus was a lot like the Lewis and Clark. Now i love thse guys Clark most of all, but all the blasted way west they went were towns with French names. I liked St Charles Mo really well with 400 year old getto's. Not like any other getto' mind you, but a high class joint just real old.

I can guess all I like but, for me what works best is what science has discovered, and then I can test it.

Personally I think the point called Clovis is Euro and came from Euro via Vikings as the clovis point is a take off of a danish dagger. There IS more clovis points in the east than the west, and the problem there is that the first of these types were found in the west. Another problem is that ice free gap crossing from Asia.

I highly doubt the first finds for clovis points were the first places they were made. I think that's the last place west they got. What i think isn't important, or if it is, no one told me yet

Some things science says don't hold no water so far as I think. In my best rural hick tawk 'It jus don't make no sence.'

At some point a mechanic created a stone point, it wasn't much good. Over time the points got better and later entered a golden age of points. Grom that point on all points got worse again and if you take any guy off the street this afternoon, hand over a core and a hammer stone at best all he will do is cut himself real bad

If you ask me a gun is the key, which proves the idea. I almost said point.

Somewhere after the chinese discovered gun powder, the first guns were made of wood and rope coradge. Look the hell out Mista'! In time metals were found to work a little better. At that time the word Gunne meant a cannon of some sort and stayed in that meaning a very long time when fire arm was a hand held gun. These were made a mess of ways too, some were crude strips of soft iron welded to other strips to seall the lousey joints. Most of these were wrapped in bands of more soft iron to hold them in a crude tube. These were heavy, inaccurate, hard to load, hard to point and there was just nothing about them that was much good.

In more time they did hit a golden age, and that to me was around the time of the wheel lock and snaphance, pretty weird guns but decorated beyond any reason with inlays of gold, ivory silver, pearls and just any kinds of jem stones and these were in highly figured carved woods all exotic.

More or less that lasted in to the 18th century, and began to die out slowly in the 19th century, and dropped more and more untill in around WW-2 almost no guns have much expect for a few very special guns where a little smidgen of gold in lay, Pattons ivory grips, Castro's gold in-lay oak leaf engraved Govt Mod .45 and that like we almost dead last.

Look at what most people call fire arms now and you get a little fancy casting with a nice bore in a plastic stock and we call it all hi tech. Shoots good, but thar's no art about it.

I agree the English would have used almost what ever weapons of their time there felt would work.

Swords, daggers, cross bows, long bows and crude but effective muskets a lot like match locks and maybe as soon as dog locks came out them but for that boom which wasn't something Natives were accustomed too.

I think the Spanish made the best use of that. Convincing the natives that the ships were larger birds forced to carry gods and man god in metal clothing. The weapon making a loud boom.

A hoot in the middle 1600's is the fact the French convinced northen Natives that the English crucified Jesus Thars no time limits to liein thru the teeth for any politians, and that still is a seemingly cherished art form today, IS it not?

It is important to know that I am not a historian. I read what they write I read what scients say, and then all by myself for no reasin than my own curiosity I try to duplicate what I learn, and see if it makes sence.

In stone there is a lot that doesn't fit the time and better skills and then the worse sill sets some it makes no sence. I don't know why.

[.highnlite]

You might enjoy, Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond.

[Mac_Muz]

got an isbn?

[1AngryTaxPayer]

I have one of those twist steel jobs. It's quite a bit newer though, in .14 gauge and no way would I ever think about shooting it. I wonder how many times they shot those old gunnes and it was more devastating for the shooter than the shoot(ed).

[DMenscha]

Back in the '70's I worked for the Forest Service near Groveland. My boss wanted to be sure we all made enough in our seasonal firefighting jobs so he let me work lookout relief on my scheduled days off. One day I was sitting on top of the Woods Ridge LO and a thunderstorm came to visit down from Lake Eleanor in Yosemite Park. The lookout is an 8' square metal cab on top of a 110' metal tower. 3/8" solid copper wire ran down each leg and connected to the lightening rod on top.

I disconnected the radio's and snuggled as far away from the edge of the cab and away from the firefinder in the middle as I could. After getting pelted with hail for about 10 minutes, I felt my hair start to float up and a few moments later took a strike right above my head. It was LOUD and there was no roll of thunder afterwards. The windows started to glow with St. Elmo's fire and my adrenaline level went sky high. A minute or two later my hair started to rise again and unfortunately, this time I knew what to expect. I started screaming at the top of my lungs and BAM strike number 2.

Total hits 7. Religious experience.

[Mac_Muz]

Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer

I have one of those twist steel jobs. It's quite a bit newer though, in .14 gauge and no way would I ever think about shooting it. I wonder how many times they shot those old gunnes and it was more devastating for the shooter than the shoot(ed).

14 ga? got any pics of that? Is this set up for paper shells or brass shells? I never heard of 14 ga. If you pull the barrel(s) does it say Nitro Proof anywhere? Is there a make name?

14 ga is really odd, and i would think I would have heard of it and haven't.

[Mac_Muz]

Originally Posted by DMenscha

Back in the '70's I worked for the Forest Service near Groveland. My boss wanted to be sure we all made enough in our seasonal firefighting jobs so he let me work lookout relief on my scheduled days off. One day I was sitting on top of the Woods Ridge LO and a thunderstorm came to visit down from Lake Eleanor in Yosemite Park. The lookout is an 8' square metal cab on top of a 110' metal tower. 3/8" solid copper wire ran down each leg and connected to the lightening rod on top.

I disconnected the radio's and snuggled as far away from the edge of the cab and away from the firefinder in the middle as I could. After getting pelted with hail for about 10 minutes, I felt my hair start to float up and a few moments later took a strike right above my head. It was LOUD and there was no roll of thunder afterwards. The windows started to glow with St. Elmo's fire and my adrenaline level went sky high. A minute or two later my hair started to rise again and unfortunately, this time I knew what to expect. I started screaming at the top of my lungs and BAM strike number 2.

Total hits 7. Religious experience.

I bet it was indeed! I haven't suffered that exactly but twice ran from hot granite once on foot in NH and once in Utah on a Motorcycle.

I took a hit fairly direct inside a wooden boat shop. I was taking a break in a humdinger of a T storm and like a fool setting on the base of a floor bolted drill press. The room went blue the owners dog a American Springer Spaniel whimpered real loud, as I was petting it and giving it tater chips.

The next thing I knew i was getting up from a face down frog spring not of my own doing, from a puddle on the floor under a boat. My face was abraided from the landing on the floor.

My heart felt funny so i went home. My heart felt funny for the next 3 days, and the dog was lame. With ease i could pass life with out that again.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by Mac_Muz

14 ga? got any pics of that? Is this set up for paper shells or brass shells? I never heard of 14 ga. If you pull the barrel(s) does it say Nitro Proof anywhere? Is there a make name?

14 ga is really odd, and i would think I would have heard of it and haven't.

I'll look it over when I get around my gun case. I think still paper shells though but I could be wrong.

This is all I could find

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/article...sandbores.html

[Mac_Muz]

I didn't know that.... Ga was for how many round ball were in 1 pound. 10 in a 10 Ga 28 in a 28

The numbers can be a little odd at times like 30-06 is 7.62mm and 06 is 1906.

But we Yank's can go around and call a Winchester a 7.62 x 7.62 can we?