Closed for business? The anti-business mythology of the Golden State (income, property tax)

[user_id]

Originally Posted by randian

Perhaps your money doesn't matter to you. A 20% lower tax burden very much matters to me

And that's fine, but Texas as a whole provides less than California. For some people that may not be such a big deal (e.g., single higher income folks), where as for others it could be a serious issue (a family with college aged kids).

If I grew up in Texas my life would likely be very different, in California I got a great second chance and was able to go to great colleges. In Texas I would have been stuck.

Also, you are looking at the overall tax burdens. California has a more progressive tax system so those in the low to mid income ranges are likely to be paying similar amounts of tax. For example take a couple making $60k both of which own a home worth $180k. This couple (say 2 kids) will pay around $4,000 in property taxes in Texas (thinking of Travis county). In California they will pay $2,000 in property taxes and around $600 in income tax, for a total of $2,600. Some other taxes are higher in California (a bit higher sales tax and higher fuel taxes) so you can add another $200 or so. Still, California ends up being $1,200 cheaper for this couple.

Texas doesn't start getting noticeably cheaper in terms of taxes until you get into the $100k range. So great, Texas taxes its low income and middle-class residents more than California and its upper-middle class and wealthy residents less than California.

[ZhugeLiang]

Originally Posted by user_id

And that's fine, but Texas as a whole provides less than California. For some people that may not be such a big deal (e.g., single higher income folks), where as for others it could be a serious issue (a family with college aged kids).

If I grew up in Texas my life would likely be very different, in California I got a great second chance and was able to go to great colleges. In Texas I would have been stuck.

Also, you are looking at the overall tax burdens. California has a more progressive tax system so those in the low to mid income ranges are likely to be paying similar amounts of tax. For example take a couple making $60k both of which own a home worth $180k. This couple (say 2 kids) will pay around $4,000 in property taxes in Texas (thinking of Travis county). In California they will pay $2,000 in property taxes and around $600 in income tax, for a total of $2,600. Some other taxes are higher in California (a bit higher sales tax and higher fuel taxes) so you can add another $200 or so. Still, California ends up being $1,200 cheaper for this couple.

Texas doesn't start getting noticeably cheaper in terms of taxes until you get into the $100k range. So great, Texas taxes its low income and middle-class residents more than California and its upper-middle class and wealthy residents less than California.

I don't know where you're getting these figures from.

[ZhugeLiang]

Originally Posted by Oerdin

He's talking about the total median tax rate for both state and local taxes. It's almost exactly 2% difference between California and Texas. In other words, not enough to really matter.

It matters in the scope of total cost of living. That 2% bit is very misleading.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by ZhugeLiang

I don't know where you're getting these figures from.

Yes....and? I'm sure there are a lot of things you don't know. The numbers are from my calculator and are based on the tax details of both states.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by user_id

Really? How many businesses do you own? When I go to my city hall with a question I'm helped within minutes, greeted with a smile and the person makes every effort to answer my question(s). When I call the state or county to get something done, same thing.

When you treat city, state, etc officials with respect and understanding they will almost always treat you with the same. On the other hand if you treat them poorly from the start they are likely to use their powers to make your life difficult, they are after all just people and will react poorly to mistreatment.

"Really", yourself. There's never any excuse for someone "using their powers to make your life difficult", ever, least of all for a public servant to do it... that's what being a "professional" is all about. And why there are laws against abuse of power. Although I would figure that someone with such a colossal chip on their shoulder to begin with, would have reason to support that principle better than anyone. Unless maybe they're a "bureaucrat" themselves!

Or perhaps you think this is a good example of "respect and understanding". And BTW, it's enough of a problem statewide that there's even a website devoted to it: Garment Mafia.org: State Funded Bullying:

‘Heavy-handed tactics’-- Screen printers complain of state inspectors who unevenly enforce an arcane licensing law

The past three months have been tiresome and exasperating for Roland Allen. The owner of a small Chico screen-printing shop called Limey Tees, he has been working six days a week, not less than 10 hours a day, without any employees to help keep his business afloat.

During that time, he’s lost thousands of dollars in revenue and in fines—all because he didn’t have a garment license, something he didn’t even know his business needed.

Allen isn’t alone. Many screen-print shop owners in the area have been dodging bullets from the state, in the form of cease-and-desist orders for not having a garment license that most of them had never heard about.

It took Allen three months to obtain his license. The citation itself was just $100. But, because one employee was working on the clock at the time of inspection, an extra $1,000 was tagged onto the fine.

As if that wasn’t enough, two months into the ordeal Allen discovered he was also required to post a $5,000 bond to secure his license. That was after losing revenues, being forced to turn down business and working without employees for weeks.

Allen was also required to pay about $1,500 in fines, but the clincher was a $21,000 bond penalty—something the local business could not afford.

Allen believes the law is “randomly enforced.” According to a database of all businesses in the state with garment licenses, he is now one of six registered in Chico. Only five businesses in Sacramento have the license, and none in either Fresno or Bakersfield, cities with a combined population of nearly 1 million.

Some eight to 10 people caught up in the sweep have contacted state Assemblyman Jim Nielsen’s office in Sacramento contesting the need for such a license. The office was also contacted with allegations of unfair treatment on the part of the inspectors, reported Nielsen’s chief of staff, David Reade. “The thing that is most distressing is what appeared to be heavy-handed tactics,” Reade commented.

The biggest problem is the scare tactics used while carrying out this state funded extortion. Most business owners are so afraid of the retaliation they simply pay in silence. Shop owners point in particular to an inspector named Facundo BullBoxer31, who works out of the Redding office, saying he used a “dubious interpretation of a law intended to protect sweat-shop employees from exploitation.”

[user_id]

Originally Posted by mateo45

"Really", yourself. There's never any excuse for someone "using their powers to make your life difficult", ever, least of all for a public servant to do it...

Lovely and when you create your utopia let me know, but here in the real world people are people. People will do mean things, people are petty, etc. That's just the reality of matters. So you can say there is "no excuse", etc all you want but that doesn't help the business owner. The business owner is much better of treating city, state, etc employees with the utmost respect even when they believe they are wrong.

Originally Posted by mateo45

And why there are laws against abuse of power.

Yes, but they will act within the law. City, state, etc employees have a lot of latitude. For example, they can fine you for a violation, or they can give you a warning. They can keep coming over to make sure you're compliant or they can leave you alone. A lot is going to depend on your attitude, if you give them attitude the minute you walk in and erupt when they suggest that you need to be doing X then they are likely to come down hard on you.

Originally Posted by mateo45

Or perhaps you think this is a good example of "respect and understanding". And BTW, it's enough of a problem statewide that there's even a website devoted to it....

Yep it is a good example, many people had a much easier time with this. See here:

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-...ng/t77157.html

[mateo45]

Your "deference" towards "authority" aside (even towards the folks we all employ), then what are you saying, that you defend inflicting over $20K in state fines on some small town t-shirt printer?!! I've heard of the Stockholm syndrome, but even your attitude sounds kinda ridiculous....

Although, maybe this is odd "submissiveness" is more likely an example of what psychologists call, the "Right Wing Authoritarian" (RWA) type, characterized by:

Authoritarian submission — a high degree of submissiveness to the authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in the society in which one lives.
Authoritarian aggression — a general aggressiveness directed against deviants, outgroups, and other people that are perceived to be targets according to established authorities.
Conventionalism — a high degree of adherence to the traditions and social norms that are perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities, and a strong belief that others in one's society should also be required to adhere to these norms.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by mateo45

Your "deference" towards "authority" aside (even towards the folks we all employ), then what are you saying, that you defend inflicting over $20K in state fines on some small town t-shirt printer?!!

The fines for not having a garment manufacturing license are no where year $20k. Its $100 per employee plus you may have to get bonded for thee years (total of $1500).

Whatever other fines that guy got are related to other issues.

In terms of your psychology nonsense, again its about what benefits business owners the most. Kindness and respect is going to go along way in making your life easier. If you truly think something is wrong and worth fighting for you can do it in court, giving some state regulator an attitude isn't going to help your case at all.

Anyhow, if you read people's stories about the garment manufacturing license you find a high correlation of "getting off easy" with a good attitude towards the situation.

[ZhugeLiang]

Originally Posted by user_id

Yes....and? I'm sure there are a lot of things you don't know. The numbers are from my calculator and are based on the tax details of both states.

Which based on your posting history, you likely pulled out of your ass.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by ZhugeLiang

Which based on your posting history, you likely pulled out of your ass.

Feel free to demonstrate that they aren't accurate.

There was actually one inaccuracy, the property tax in California would be more like $1800. So California taxes are around $1,400 less for the case used in my example. The Texas property do vary a bit from location to location and the California income tax could be a bit higher or lower depending on the details. But the Californian is going to come out with a lot less taxes in either case.

Doesn't it suck when something you're told many times ends up being false?