Active weather pattern (San Diego, August, Imperial: association, company, schedule)

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Fontucky

Shouldn't that be ARE growing?

No, the savanna habitat is in the areas the bluegums are not. The bluegums create a habitat more like that of coniferous forest. Very different than the way Eucalyptus grow in Socal; they're much taller and denser and have largely become naturalized.

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Soil in the Bay Area is far more varied. Even within a single watershed the soil will change simply when you cross a stream bed. Tilden Regional Park shows a prime example of this; The canyon runs from north to south. The western side of the canyon contains a quite different plant community than the east. On the west there are California Laurel with a few Douglas Fir and an occasional Live Oak. The understory is covered with ferns and moss and lichens grow on the ground and on tree trunks. A very northwest-like feel to it. Cross the creek and it immediately changes to a drier, more savanna like habitat in areas where the Bluegums aren't growing. They too prefer that more eastern side. the soil there is drier and more claylike than the western side.

I think this is especially the case in the coast ranges -- Marin, East Bay Hills, etc., because the microclimates have created different ecosystems that barely transition to one another, but almost abruptly abut each other. Different vegetation = different organic matter in the soil. Now east of the East Bay Hills, into Walnut Creek, Danville, etc., the soil is pretty much the same. It's those areas on the cusp of coastal vs. inland microclimates that see those variations. I'm always suprised how when you enter a native redwood forest, it doesn't sort of phase in; it hits you like a wall, and suddenly, you're in it, and then you're out of it.

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

I'll have to check out the garden at Lake Merritt.

The popularity of most horticultural commodities in the last ten years is largely driven by what the big box stores sell. Because they sell a lot of any item doesn't mean it is a quality item either.

Several builders had Queen palms planted in their subdivisions in Natomas. Most of them died. Some managed to make it. It seems as if they can make it 5 or 7 years they adapt to the local conditions a little better. I don't think it is the occasional freezes as much as it is that part of the year where it is overcast through the end of November through January. Most plants don't have the ability to photosynthesize in colder temperatures. When it is dark and grey they have that much more difficulty. This is different from, the Diablo and Livermore Valleys where they experience less fog, and the fog clears earlier in the day, and, the biggest factor, those areas quite often have days in the 60s when Sacramento, Stockton, and Modesto are experiencing drizzle and high temperatures in the 40s because the fog blocks the sunlight. And the air is usually hazy on the days the sun comes out after a foggy morning. And you mention San Diego. The humidity is higher there. I planted three Queen palms at my mom's place in Fresno. They survived the frost with some frostbite. It was 105° afternoons and 10% humidity that was the problem. The leaves burned because it couldn't keep up with the rate of transpiration in those conditions.

I'm not trying to argue that you can't grow them in California. I'm just saying some areas aren't that great for them. A Queen palm wouldn't be my first choice in Sacramento.

Yeah, probably not a first choice. First choice would be the California Fan Palm or date palms. But I'm surprised that queen palms would suffer from low light in the winter if other palms don't, so I'd be interested to know if that is a hypothesis that proves to be true. I might research that sometime, as it's interesting.

And you are right, we get a lot less valley fog in the inland East Bay, as long as you're not near a major gap in the hills (like the delta or Carquinez Strait). It does sometimes creep its way south and/or spills over the Diablo Range, but it's more often kept just at bay and/or clears earlier. And we also don't get much coastal stratus that far inland either, which tends to end right at the 24/680 interchange on the worst mornings, and at the Berkeley Hills on most mornings. So yeah, it's pretty sunny!

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

No, the savanna habitat is in the areas the bluegums are not. The bluegums create a habitat more like that of coniferous forest. Very different than the way Eucalyptus grow in Socal; they're much taller and denser and have largely become naturalized.

True. I've never seen eucalyputs growing wild in SoCal, whereas you see that quite often in NorCal, where they just go rampant. It's most prevalent in coastal and bay climates though; you don't see that really as you go inland. There, you just see the ones that are planted.

[KC6ZLV]

Originally Posted by tstieber

Yeah, probably not a first choice. First choice would be the California Fan Palm or date palms. But I'm surprised that queen palms would suffer from low light in the winter if other palms don't, so I'd be interested to know if that is a hypothesis that proves to be true. I might research that sometime, as it's interesting.

And you are right, we get a lot less valley fog in the inland East Bay, as long as you're not near a major gap in the hills (like the delta or Carquinez Strait). It does sometimes creep its way south and/or spills over the Diablo Range, but it's more often kept just at bay and/or clears earlier. And we also don't get much coastal stratus that far inland either, which tends to end right at the 24/680 interchange on the worst mornings, and at the Berkeley Hills on most mornings. So yeah, it's pretty sunny!

That is my observation. The Queen palms often turn yellow by late winter here. The difference between Queen palms and some of the other palms is that the Queen palms have origins at lower latitudes where days are longer, temperatures are much warmer, despite freezes. Think of the Gulf Coast where winter afternoons are in the mid-60s to the low 80s, nights in the 50s. When the weather is cold it usually lasts no longer than a week. Now compare that to Sacramento. Sacramento isn't really a cold climate, but it is chilly in respect to the Gulf Coast. Days are shorter and there is much more overcast.

The other palms grown here are from areas which experience freezing temperatures in their native areas. The Date palm grows in the Atlas Mountains. The fan palms grow in areas of the Southwest where freezing temperatures are common. Chamaerops are native to areas of Europe located further north than Northern California.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by tstieber

I think this is especially the case in the coast ranges -- Marin, East Bay Hills, etc., because the microclimates have created different ecosystems that barely transition to one another, but almost abruptly abut each other. Different vegetation = different organic matter in the soil. Now east of the East Bay Hills, into Walnut Creek, Danville, etc., the soil is pretty much the same. It's those areas on the cusp of coastal vs. inland microclimates that see those variations. I'm always suprised how when you enter a native redwood forest, it doesn't sort of phase in; it hits you like a wall, and suddenly, you're in it, and then you're out of it.

This is true, especially with Redwoods. A good place to see what you've described is at Jewel lake in Tilden Park. Of course near the water it's mostly willows. The dam on the north side contains some Redwoods and Douglas Firs. The west side hill is covered with northwest like vegetation complete with Stinging Nettle, ferns, moss and lichen. East of the lake is tall dense Bluegum forest with an occasional redwood. Northeast is grassland with scattered live Oaks. There is also a meadow with a few live oaks and three cattail ponds. It's like three or four completely different locations but it's all viewable panoramically.

Rainfall is basically the same throughout and sometimes fog settles in from over the Berkeley Hills.

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

That is my observation. The Queen palms often turn yellow by late winter here. The difference between Queen palms and some of the other palms is that the Queen palms have origins at lower latitudes where days are longer, temperatures are much warmer, despite freezes. Think of the Gulf Coast where winter afternoons are in the mid-60s to the low 80s, nights in the 50s. When the weather is cold it usually lasts no longer than a week. Now compare that to Sacramento. Sacramento isn't really a cold climate, but it is chilly in respect to the Gulf Coast. Days are shorter and there is much more overcast.

The other palms grown here are from areas which experience freezing temperatures in their native areas. The Date palm grows in the Atlas Mountains. The fan palms grow in areas of the Southwest where freezing temperatures are common. Chamaerops are native to areas of Europe located further north than Northern California.

Definitely. One thing people also don't think about much is that plants are adaptable to conditions somewhat beyond what their native habitats provide. This is to protect them from being damaged during extreme, unforeseen weather events. Plants that are native to, say, the San Diego coast, like the Torrey Pine, are frost-hardy into the teens, eventhough they don't usually experience frost in the wild. Palm trees that come from desert environments may experience only light frosts in the wild, but they can take hard freezes. And palms that come from mountainous or northern areas, like chamaerops or trachycarpus, take temps down to 5 or 10 degrees, much lower than their native habitats. Because of that, you'll see some of those hardy palms into the Pacific Northwest, some of the warmer-climate ones in NorCal, and some of the semi-tropical ones in SoCal. It's also the reason you can grow coast redwoods in Bakersfield. If plants were so sensitive that they were not conditioned to the possibility of extremes in their native habitat, then they could easily become extinct. And that is what allows people to enjoy plants in a broader range of climates.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

That is my observation. The Queen palms often turn yellow by late winter here. The difference between Queen palms and some of the other palms is that the Queen palms have origins at lower latitudes where days are longer, temperatures are much warmer, despite freezes. Think of the Gulf Coast where winter afternoons are in the mid-60s to the low 80s, nights in the 50s. When the weather is cold it usually lasts no longer than a week. Now compare that to Sacramento. Sacramento isn't really a cold climate, but it is chilly in respect to the Gulf Coast. Days are shorter and there is much more overcast.

The other palms grown here are from areas which experience freezing temperatures in their native areas. The Date palm grows in the Atlas Mountains. The fan palms grow in areas of the Southwest where freezing temperatures are common. Chamaerops are native to areas of Europe located further north than Northern California.

Days are only longer in lower latitudes in winter. They're shorter in summer.

[KC6ZLV]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Days are only longer in lower latitudes in winter. They're shorter in summer.

Gentoo, where did that come from? Why did you feel compelled to reply with that? Are you assuming I'm uneducated? If you would have taken the time to follow and comprehend the conversation you would have understood I was referring to the problems with growing certain plants under the conditions during the winter at my latitude.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

Gentoo, where did that come from? Why did you feel compelled to reply with that? Are you assuming I'm uneducated? If you would have taken the time to follow and comprehend the conversation you would have understood I was referring to the problems with growing certain plants under the conditions during the winter at my latitude.

My God calm down dude it's just a reply on city-data relax. It was just a statement and it's not an inaccurate one either. No one was attacking you sheesh

Perhaps we should take this back to the original topic of this thread.