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Old 11-03-2011, 12:53 PM
 
Location: South Korea
5,242 posts, read 13,076,043 times
Reputation: 2958

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
I respectfully could not disagree more...

Prop 13 is a by-product of the Serrano v. Priest Decision which forever changed school funding in California.

Serrano v. Priest and not Prop 13 is the root of what ails California Public Schools. My father taught at a Public High and was lifetime credentialed... he was very unhappy with Serrano v. Priest because it gave the State power over much of what had been previously left to the local districts allocate.

Previous to Serrano v. Priest local property taxes went directly to the local school system.

It is much easier to support taxes when the money is spent locally and quite another when it all goes into the general fund for education in a State as large as California.

Even today... there are top performing public school districts as well as individual schools in districts that are poorly rated... Oakland would be an example having both ends of the spectrum.

Prop 13 is the one last stabilizing force property tax payers have...

Prop 13 also provides for additional assessments with voter approval... I live in Oakland and the Statewide 1% tax rate is less than half the 2% I pay on my home which is assessed at current market value...

I was too young to have voted for Proposition 13 at the time of it's enactment... I am forever thankful that those that came before me had the foresight to do so...
After prop 13 was passed California went from having the #1 public schools in the nation to something like 47th, and by now we're dead last. Maybe Serrano started it, but prop 13 didn't help. We went from having a lot of good school districts with a few really crappy ones (which is typical in most of the US) to having a lot of really crappy ones and a few really good ones. You have middle class towns in the Bay Area that in any other part of the US would be considered affluent, but they have horrible school districts because they're starved for property tax money.

I guarantee you that any house in California would vastly increase in value if it went from being in a crappy "middle-class" school district to being in a solidly good school district due to better property tax funding. The people made their choice, they wanted lower taxes in exchange for crappier schools without really thinking about it. Property taxes pre-prop 13 might have been crazy and in need of reform, but property values since then have been completely insane too. I wouldn't be too surprised if someone could prove that the escrow/tax savings from prop 13 were just tacked onto the value of the house because of supply and demand (people can only pay so much per month on a mortgage whether the monthly payment is based more or less on escrow than the house's price alone). That's not really the main problem...the main problem is that things like Serrano and prop 13 have completely screwed up local education funding and as you say put it in the hands of a centralized state bureaucracy that starves everyone equally. Then the state and its cities have to depend more on income and sales tax than property tax for revenue, and that income/sales tax revenue dives sharply in a recession, and we've had what, 3 bad recessions in the last 20 years.

I really don't think California voters were thinking clearly (or given all the correct information) when they voted on things like prop 13 and other costly measures like the three-strikes law. Problem is though that we have no reason to trust our elected officials to make these decisions without propositions because they're a bunch of bums. I think the United States as a whole is starting to face these issues which California has dealt with (because of our own actions) for decades--we want a lot of costly services like Social Security and a massive military but we don't want to pay for them, and we don't want any reforms that would change the status quo.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:12 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 3,505,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
After prop 13 was passed California went from having the #1 public schools in the nation to something like 47th, and by now we're dead last.
Correlation does not equal causation .. How about you look at the demographic of lower performers in public schools and try to calculate if this demographic has increased/decreased and try to understand the boneheaded policies which have attracted more of them to your state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
Maybe Serrano started it, but prop 13 didn't help. We went from having a lot of good school districts with a few really crappy ones (which is typical in most of the US) to having a lot of really crappy ones and a few really good ones. You have middle class towns in the Bay Area that in any other part of the US would be considered affluent, but they have horrible school districts because they're starved for property tax money.
Correlation does not equal causation ... Affluent people are more educated and tend to put more stake in their children's education ... The extra money in tax dollars isn't what is causing the schools to be better .. The cost of living in the affluent places filters out 'certain' types of people .. I am not saying this to be condescending .. just stating the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
I guarantee you that any house in California would vastly increase in value if it went from being in a crappy "middle-class" school district to being in a solidly good school district due to better property tax funding.
LMFAO .. you're mighty sold on this aren't you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
The people made their choice, they wanted lower taxes in exchange for crappier schools without really thinking about it. Property taxes pre-prop 13 might have been crazy and in need of reform, but property values since then have been completely insane too. I wouldn't be too surprised if someone could prove that the escrow/tax savings from prop 13 were just tacked onto the value of the house because of supply and demand (people can only pay so much per month on a mortgage whether the monthly payment is based more or less on escrow than the house's price alone). That's not really the main problem...the main problem is that things like Serrano and prop 13 have completely screwed up local education funding and as you say put it in the hands of a centralized state bureaucracy that starves everyone equally. Then the state and its cities have to depend more on income and sales tax than property tax for revenue, and that income/sales tax revenue dives sharply in a recession, and we've had what, 3 bad recessions in the last 20 years.

I really don't think California voters were thinking clearly (or given all the correct information) when they voted on things like prop 13 and other costly measures like the three-strikes law. Problem is though that we have no reason to trust our elected officials to make these decisions without propositions because they're a bunch of bums. I think the United States as a whole is starting to face these issues which California has dealt with (because of our own actions) for decades--we want a lot of costly services like Social Security and a massive military but we don't want to pay for them, and we don't want any reforms that would change the status quo.
You're ridiculous .. critical thinking needs to be taught more to adults. The revenue from property taxes given how expensive homes are in California far exceed that of other states w/ lower property tax.. plus you have 8.25% sales tax.. plus you tax income @ 9.25% for anything above $40k ...
As for property taxes : 1% of $500,000 is $5k .. 2% of $125,000 = $2.5k .. amazing i know ...

California has money pouring out of its ears.. but money doesn't fix certain problems and when you keep inviting garbage into your state.. that's pretty much what you should expect in the results..

You'll take note where the burning, idiocy, and 'protests' have been going on .. I haven't seen a lick of it on the other side of the bay.

P.S - I'm African American and grew up in a neighborhood far worse than Oakland .. You can't help but note the big role parents' played in a child's performance in school... Big role the community played in shaping a child's mind.. Big role the culture/mindset played in impacting things.. I used to get picked on for speaking properly.. for doing good in school .. It's an incubation of low achievement .. Leadership is one of the best things that could serve such communities .. Money tends to not have jack sh*t to do w/ it/.

Last edited by yeahthatguy; 11-03-2011 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:57 PM
 
Location: South Korea
5,242 posts, read 13,076,043 times
Reputation: 2958
Go to any other state (and yes other states have lots of illegal immigrants) and you don't really see the perennially crappy schools in solidly middle class areas that you see everywhere in CA. Yes times are tough all around the country and other states are cutting back too, but you see crappy schools even during the GOOD years in CA. Californians voted themselves into this scenario willingly. Fortunately UC has always been the sole saving grace of public education in CA but even that is falling apart now.
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Old 11-03-2011, 03:31 PM
 
Location: San Leandro
4,576 posts, read 9,160,255 times
Reputation: 3248
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
Go to any other state (and yes other states have lots of illegal immigrants) and you don't really see the perennially crappy schools in solidly middle class areas that you see everywhere in CA. Yes times are tough all around the country and other states are cutting back too, but you see crappy schools even during the GOOD years in CA. Californians voted themselves into this scenario willingly. Fortunately UC has always been the sole saving grace of public education in CA but even that is falling apart now.
No other state holds 25% of the nations illegal mexicans. Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico are right on california's coat tail for awful schools and filled with illegals. So um yea. Never mind the fact that when adjusted for inflation, per pupil spending has gone up up up in California.

I'm just thankful that me and my fellow catholics provide top notch schools for our children. It's a shame other groups, including athiests, can not follow our example.

I'm glad catholic schools charge more for people who are not members of the parish.

Last edited by NorCal Dude; 11-03-2011 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:06 PM
 
Location: San Diego
50,251 posts, read 47,011,154 times
Reputation: 34053
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
Go to any other state (and yes other states have lots of illegal immigrants) and you don't really see the perennially crappy schools in solidly middle class areas that you see everywhere in CA. Yes times are tough all around the country and other states are cutting back too, but you see crappy schools even during the GOOD years in CA. Californians voted themselves into this scenario willingly. Fortunately UC has always been the sole saving grace of public education in CA but even that is falling apart now.
We didn't vote for 30 years of open borders. These kids wouldn't be here if the Parents weren't, no matter how you spin it. We didn't vote for busing these poor 30 miles across town into what used to be the best schools. I don't remember voting for using the general fund to feed and watch these same kids before and after school. I didn't vote to have my kids Teachers spend all day with the ESL students while the rest are pretty much on their own. I wasn't part of causing the 'middle class flight' out of these schools into private schools. One of the most hilarious arguments I've ever heard was, "The schools would be empty if not for these kids being bused in". Are you kidding me? The schools are right down the street, get these ESL kids into the schools down the street in their own hood and we'll start using the ones on our block again. We won't send our kids to the schools in our hood because they were being invaded. I tell you what though. The busing program ended. If it stays that way watch the scores of these schools will rise again. You watch. The Teachers I know are dancing in the street knowing that the border kids aren't being bused in anymore.
Is it(illegal immigration) the only problem? No. Is it a big enough problem that it's number 1? I believe it is.

I've seen it, I've been volunteering for years at many of the local schools.

Last edited by 1AngryTaxPayer; 11-03-2011 at 05:24 PM..
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: South Korea
5,242 posts, read 13,076,043 times
Reputation: 2958
White Californians lured them in with promises of work and now want to blame them for everything under the sun. Pretty much everyone is to blame for them being here and they aren't going away overnight. Also they pay into property taxes same as anyone else, if they rent property then the landlord uses that $$$ to pay the property tax. And if whiny purist Republicans would budget on opening up citizenship to more illegals, there'd be an awful lot more people paying income taxes and social security/medicare taxes. Duh...
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,593,729 times
Reputation: 7477
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
We didn't vote for 30 years of open borders. These kids wouldn't be here if the Parents weren't, no matter how you spin it. We didn't vote for busing these poor 30 miles across town into what used to be the best schools. I don't remember voting for using the general fund to feed and watch these same kids before and after school. I didn't vote to have my kids Teachers spend all day with the ESL students while the rest are pretty much on their own.
But you probably voted for the school board members who supported those policies.

Quote:
I wasn't part of causing the 'middle class flight' out of these schools into private schools.
This makes me wonder - with the current economy making private schools unaffordable for many of those middle class or formerly middle class parents, their kids will probably show up again in said public schools.

Quote:
One of the most hilarious arguments I've ever heard was, "The schools would be empty if not for these kids being bused in".
In that case then some should be closed and the money should be used to build schools in the neighborhoods where there is more demand.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:34 PM
 
28,115 posts, read 63,651,739 times
Reputation: 23263
I could be way off in my thinking as I'm really only familiar with the SF Bay Area and California is a big State.

As I mentioned, my Father was a public High School teacher and he and his teacher friends believed that Serrano was the beginning of the end.

Good schools are important and property values are effected positively... I have lost very good neighbors that ONLY moved because of the schools.

They loved their Oakland neighborhood and their homes... they penciled out the cost of private school tuition vs moving and decided to move... some even rented after being a homeowner to get into the best schools like Piedmont, Cupertino and Orinda.

Another puzzling fact is the Oakland Tribune not too long ago stated the Oakland school district spends something like 15k per child which is more than the tuition of some very good private schools.

Another point about pre-prop 13 is several local tax assessor went to prison and one committed suicide for giving sweetheart assessments to those of influence..

Prop 13 is extremely simple... the entire law is a couple of paragraphs and one of the best features in my opinion is removing the assessor from the valuation part in most cases...

Property is valued at fair market at the time of transfer... no more guessing and the tax payers are not subject to someone's guess as to what their home is worth...

It was particularly rough in the 70's... people experienced double digit tax increases and opening the tax bill was like roulette...

Prop 13 added tremendous stability to the revenue stream... for more than 30 years, tax revenue increased each year...

I'm probably too jaded after a lifetime of living here... I just don't think throwing money at education is the answer...

And... School Construction money is EXEMPT from Prop 13 two thirds requirement.

A little off topic for this thread but worthy of mention... Oakland and the residents of Oakland have already spent millions due to Occupy Wall Street... my local school is on the chopping block because closing it will save the district several hundred thousand dollars a year and yet we must foot the bill when non-residents tear up our city
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:56 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,894,999 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
...
A little off topic for this thread but worthy of mention... Oakland and the residents of Oakland have already spent millions due to Occupy Wall Street... my local school is on the chopping block because closing it will save the district several hundred thousand dollars a year and yet we must foot the bill when non-residents tear up our city
Remains to be seen whether such would be a cost of a greater good. I understand your frustration, but stay tuned. I have been expecting this upheaval since I was a kid ... can't believe it has taken so long for the world to begin confronting our culture's unsustainable foundation on consumerism. Education as it has been structured for the past near 100 years, at least, is only perpetuating a soulless evolution.

The body of knowledge humans have labored to acquire is a wonderment. Any application of this beyond mindless materialism should be a far more rewarding gift to our children than what we shove down their throats today. And I'm not a bit in agreement that the best venues for education are the classrooms we see evolved today, that stress only competitive acquisition of information and techniques -- leaving all character and philosophical issues untouched. In the end, seeing our schools close in favor of a new transition may be a very good thing indeed.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,593,729 times
Reputation: 7477
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
After prop 13 was passed California went from having the #1 public schools in the nation to something like 47th, and by now we're dead last.
As with unemployment, Nevada keeps us from being in last place.
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