91 California cities vote to display "In God We Trust" (tenant, universities)

[1200RT]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

There is a God

Originally Posted by DynamoLA

Prove it.

There are great insights on both side of this argument. Are we really going to stoop to the level of arguing if there is a god or not? Lets not ruin this thread with that age old argument.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

John Adams stated clearly "In no sense is America founded as a Christian nation."

Yes, and other founding fathers, like John Jay, stated the opposite. The fact is that we were, at the time, a deeply Christian nation but did not have or want an established Christian church.

The distinction is important.

George Washington pretty much echoes our national motto:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Our founding fathers by and large were not Christians. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and John Adams are three that pop up as non Christians.

Two thirds of the founding fathers belonged to the Church of England - a confessionally Christian denomination that required trinitarian professions of faith from its members. George Washington was among them. It's true that Jefferson and Adams were not orthodox Christians, but they insisted on a belief in God and His active role in the lives of men and nations.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

I wish that those who prattle about Freedom of Religion in this country would understand that the amendment also gives us freedom from religion.

The 1st Amendment doesn't give anyone "freedom from religion". If that were the case, there would be no freedom of religious expression.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

This really is like having some guy on this forum obsessed with the Denver Broncos and making every thread turn to what the heck the Denver Broncos are up to, and most of us have no interest in the Denver Broncos.

The only little problem with that is that God, as the Creator of the universe Who has, in Jefferson's own words, endowed all men with "unalienable rights", is more relevant to civic life than the Denver Broncos.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Mach50

To believe in a God you must have faith.

No, you don't need any faith. To believe in God you need only exercise the use of reason. Five proofs for the existence of God.

[Ceece]

Is city signage a religious validation now? I don't get why anyone would see this as a win for god or whatever. Actually it's just another target for vandals.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Ceece

I don't get why anyone would see this as a win for god or whatever. Actually it's just another target for vandals.

God doesn't need a "win" from us, but the displays are a win for sanity and civic virtue.

[Ceece]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

God doesn't need a "win" from us, but the displays are a win for sanity and civic virtue.

Not really. It displays what the current city council thinks looks good.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Ceece

Not really. It displays what the current city council thinks looks good.

That's some high-octane cynicism there. Not to mention iconoclasm. Can't help but think it's being selectively applied ....

[DynamoLA]

Originally Posted by 1200RT

There are great insights on both side of this argument. Are we really going to stoop to the level of arguing if there is a god or not? Lets not ruin this thread with that age old argument.

Sorry, but if my city, state, nation, whatever is telling me to "trust in God", I'd like to have some proof of existence first.

It's actually very relevant to this conversation.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by DynamoLA

Sorry, but if my city, state, nation, whatever is telling me to "trust in God", I'd like to have some proof of existence first.

It's actually very relevant to this conversation.

You just need to spend a little time with some basic philosophical arguments for the existence of God. I linked to five upthread. There are many others.

For most people, though, belief in God is naturally intuitive and has to be educated out of them.

[.highnlite]

The problem you have, is that you mistake the era for belief. It was not at all safe to state one was an atheist or better.

During the presidential campaign of 1880, the Christian Union made the startling admission that, of the nineteen men who, up to that time, had held the office of President of the United States, not one, with the Possible exception of Washington, had ever been a member of a Christian church.

Washington was not a communicant. This fact can be easily demonstrated. A century ago it was the custom of all classes, irrespective of their religious beliefs, to attend church. Washington, adhering to the custom, attended. But when the administration of the sacrament took place, instead of remaining and partaking of the Lord's Supper as a communicant would have done, he invariably arose and retired from the church.
The closing years of his life, save the last two, were passed in Philadelphia, he being then President of the United States. In addition to his eight years' incumbency of the presidency, he was, during the eight years of the Revolutionary war, and also during the six years that elapsed between the Revolution and the establishment of the Federal government, not only a frequent visitor in Philadelphia, but during a considerable portion of the time a resident of that city. While there he attended the Episcopal churches of which the Rev. William White and the Rev. James Abercromble were rectors. In regard to his being a communicant, no evidence can be so pertinent or so decisive as that of his pastors.

Bishop White, the father of the Protestant Episcopal church of America, is one of the most eminent names in church history. During a large portion of the period covering nearly a quarter of a century, Washington, with his wife, attended the churches in which Bishop White officiated. In a letter dated Fredericksburg, Aug. 13, 1835, Colonel Mercer sent Bishop White the following inquiry relative to this question:

"I have a desire, my dear Sir, to know whether Gen. Washington was a communicant of the Protestant Episcopal church, or whether he occasionally went to the communion only, or if ever he did so at all. ... No authority can be so authentic and complete as yours on this point."

To this inquiry Bishop White replied as follows:

"Philadelphia, Aug. 15, 1835.

"Dear Sir: In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that Gen. Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant.

... I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them as I now do you. I am respectfully.

"Your humble servant,

"WILLIAM WHITE."
(Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 196, 197).



The 1st Amendment doesn't give anyone "freedom from religion". If that were the case, there would be no freedom of religious expression.

Well known right wing preacher Mike Huckabee has stated that we do indeed have the right of freedom from religion.



The only little problem with that is that God, as the Creator of the universe Who has, in Jefferson's own words, endowed all men with "unalienable rights", is more relevant to civic life than the Denver Broncos.


Dear old Jeff was most certainly not a Christian. There is always the possibility that there is no god, which means the Denver Broncos, which can be shown to exist is more relevant to civic life than the non existing.

Seems to me that common courtesy, they same courtesy that prevents you from peeing on a bar room floor would limit discussion of superstitions in polite society.[/quote]

People who do not understand the 18th century, and most certainly do not understand 18th century philosophy will attempt to use the words of the Founding Fathers to show that they were Christians. One can only do that if they have only a limited knowledge of the words of our Founding Fathers, and especially, they do not understand the term Deist.