CA belongs to the Native Americans! (Los Angeles, San Diego: loans, house, purchase)

[.highnlite]

Americans tend to believe that they exist outside of history. That is one of the explanations of why we wound up in wars in places that have seen little but war for thousands of years, and thought the history of their history would not apply to us.

Similarly, Americans tend to believe that because we occupy this land, that it is ours. It is only ours as long as we control it. Which, in historical terms is a finite period of time. Native Americans occupied and held the land for thousands of years, and lost control. Spain and Mexico occupied the land and controlled it for hundreds of years, and lost control. America has occupied and controlled the Southwest for 166 years (I know people in this area that have owned ranches for longer than the Americans have controlled the land)

America will, based on the lessons of history, occupy and control this land for a finite period of time. That others wish to occupy and control this land should come as no shock to anyone, it is a normal human activity to take someone else's property.

Reminds me of a story, many years ago I was touring the Southwest, at a small cliff dwelling was a Navajo boy taking money from the tourists to tour the dwelling. I got into a conversation with him, and asked him what he thought his people would do if the whites nuked themselves into oblivion, he replied, "we'd kick *** on the Hopi.

Normal human activity.

[nullgeo]

The genetics of our biological parents is what we were initially -- and still are at biological root -- which root very strongly influences how we react to, process, and utilize our experiences outside of our parental biology.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Two errors here:
1. Without addressing rightwing paranoia regarding Reconquista and Aztlan (not Atzlan) by international law the Southwest of the US was a legitimate possession of Spain and then Mexico for at least 237 years. California was discovered and claimed by Spain in 1542, Spain and then Mexico had legal claim to California for 307 years. Lower California was colonized by Spain by 1695, Loreto was the capital of all California for 81 years, until 1770. When Monterey became the capital of Alta California.
2. The Southwest of the US was colonized by Spain beginning in 1609. While the Southwest had a consistently low population, like Alaska or Australia or Siberia today, density of population is irrelevant to legal claim.

It is fine to oppose claims of reconquista, or Aztlan, but it is best not to make up history to do so. It is interesting to me, that the first geographic location for the "Aztec" mythical homeland Aztlan was identified as the Carrizo Plain in San Luis Obispo County, Calfornia, by the well respected historian, Myron Angel, in 1910!

Sir Francis Drake had claimed California for Great Britain before Cortez claimed it.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

The Mexicans inherited the Spanish claims to California. California was a division of the Viceroyalty of Mexico, were El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Costa Rica part of the Viceroyalty of Mexico?

Hey -- so why don't you see millions of Mexicans who are fleeing Mexico headed into Guatemala or Honduras?

They aren't pouring into California now because it was once territory of Spain, they are pouring into California because it is now part of the USA with all the easy USA dollars and USA Medicaid and USA food stamps.

[Bulldogdad]

Bunch of George Santayanas in here.

[nullgeo]

I love that band ....

[.highnlite]

Originally Posted by malamute

Sir Francis Drake had claimed California for Great Britain before Cortez claimed it.

And so? That has nothing to do with the fact that Spain claimed it.

Originally Posted by malamute

Hey -- so why don't you see millions of Mexicans who are fleeing Mexico headed into Guatemala or Honduras?

They aren't pouring into California now because it was once territory of Spain, they are pouring into California because it is now part of the USA with all the easy USA dollars and USA Medicaid and USA food stamps.

You are creating a political position. I am not. I am merely telling you the facts of history.

Actually, "fleeing Mexico" is not accurate. Fleeing an economy that does not work for some is accurate. Most of the recent arrivals keep their ties to their home village or town intact with the aim of returning there some day. Your number of Mexicans is also way off, millions of Mexicans did leave Mexico, it is in accurate to say they are fleeing or leaving. It is the sum total that is millions. If you take a look at the numbers you will see that the number of Mexicans entering the US is way down, and the number of Mexicans returning to Mexico is way up. It is normally economics that move people in large masses, not politics.

I challenge you to spend a week in the fields doing what the recent arrivals do, then take another look at your "easy".

[malamute]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

And so? That has nothing to do with the fact that Spain claimed it.


You are creating a political position. I am not. I am merely telling you the facts of history.

Actually, "fleeing Mexico" is not accurate. Fleeing an economy that does not work for some is accurate. Most of the recent arrivals keep their ties to their home village or town intact with the aim of returning there some day. Your number of Mexicans is also way off, millions of Mexicans did leave Mexico, it is in accurate to say they are fleeing or leaving. It is the sum total that is millions. If you take a look at the numbers you will see that the number of Mexicans entering the US is way down, and the number of Mexicans returning to Mexico is way up. It is normally economics that move people in large masses, not politics.

I challenge you to spend a week in the fields doing what the recent arrivals do, then take another look at your "easy".

I did that kind of work back when I was in middle school and high school.

Besides we all know that very very few of them are doing agricultural work because there are not millions of jobs in agriculture. Fewer than a million.

As far as the numbers, there is no way to know exactly how many are crossing the border right now because no on is counting them. Many are hiking in, many come in in boxcars, semi trailers, car trunks, buses. The border agents have been pulled from their duties at the border so it sure isn't them counting them.

From the large increases in remittances to Mexico, it would appear more than ever are coming. But again, they're not coming because Spain once claimed any part of the USA, they are coming because it's the USA now and the big easy dollars and big government handouts are in the USA.

[ambient]

Originally Posted by iamtall

Who was here first? The Indians, the Spanish, or the Americans? I often times find it humorous that people claim that CA belongs to Mexico. If CA belongs to anyone, it belongs to the Native Americans who lived here for many thousands of years before the Spanish or Americans.

Through war the United States of America took the West Coast, including CA which rightfully belonged to them. It was won fair and square. This lingering argument that CA belongs to Mexico is completely absurd. Mexico lost the war, they need to accept this fact. Look at history, defeated countries just have to accept that they were defeated and live with the consequences.

CA is not a part of Mexico, and will never again be!

Obviously, no one is going to try to annex California back to Mexico after all these hundreds of years. Not sure that this is such a hot concern now.

But just in general, isn't it kind of ridiculous to say, "We stole it from them 'fair and square' because we're bigger?" Not exactly most people's definition of fairness... Somehow, I bet you would be singing a different tune if China came in here one day and occupied the entire Eastern US coast.

[ZhugeLiang]

Yes I agree. California does belong to those born in America as California is a part of the United States.