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Old 06-17-2012, 10:45 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,866,083 times
Reputation: 3806

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Recap: this thread about the issue of forcing welfare recipients back to work sooner almost immediately devolved into bashing people on welfare, as opposed to discussing the merits or not of a program that limits welfare timelines.

The devolution predictably fell to personal anecdotes stereotyping the lazy, slovenly, and uneducated poorer classes -- especially welfare abusers.

Claims were made that if these "lazy" people had any gumption they would do as various posters have written of their own experience "rising above" ... and all the while condemning the lazy as intentionally so, and extolling the virtues of education -- and adulation of attaining as wealthy a status as possible, implicitly identifying wealth as a virtue. Education = money, money + education = productive quality participants in society.

Enter nullgeo to point out:
• there are not enough jobs for anywhere close to even half the unemployed ... many of whom have to resort to welfare programs in this extended time of low employment

• and that neither education nor wealth are guarantees or markers of productive members of society

• that, in fact, the damages and costs to society created by the minority welfare class do not begin to rise to the destructive forces and costs created by a class of people who are among the most educated and wealthy in the world.

No one has disputed any of my actual response assertions. Which are, frankly, indisputable.
Several have gone off on defensive tirades of what they apparently wish to believe I am saying but which are completely irrelevant.

*shrug*

Last edited by nullgeo; 06-17-2012 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:36 AM
 
419 posts, read 996,297 times
Reputation: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The poor are doing a lot of damage. They're the ones with the out-of-control birth rates and so the fast increasing child poverty rates, they are the ones having children they can never afford, the poor have the most drug and alcohol addictions. The poor require vasts sums of money to be confiscated from the people who worked for a living.

The poor need to change their lifestyles, they need to start valuing responsibility, self-control, start feeding the children they produce themselves or limit how many children they conceive.
Amen
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:57 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,866,083 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The poor are doing a lot of damage. They're the ones with the out-of-control birth rates and so the fast increasing child poverty rates, they are the ones having children they can never afford, the poor have the most drug and alcohol addictions. The poor require vasts sums of money to be confiscated from the people who worked for a living.

The poor need to change their lifestyles, they need to start valuing responsibility, self-control, start feeding the children they produce themselves or limit how many children they conceive.
I provided you numerous links the other day to disprove your repetitive assertions about the poor on welfare. I publicly predicted you wouldn't read them. And either I was correct -- or you simply love to spew untruth. You obviously can't dispute my representations in this thread either. And you are again making claims you can't back up.
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:08 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
10,400 posts, read 15,535,781 times
Reputation: 4283
Some people are not even remotely interested in hearing the "truth" because it simply doesn't support
their's many agenda's , (which we will not get into)...LOL...let's just say that you are talking to a 'brick wall"...and leave it at that....
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:30 PM
 
7,713 posts, read 12,583,397 times
Reputation: 12365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juelle View Post
Jesus was not a man of excuses, nor did He allow people to remain in their condition wallowing in their self-pity. He also said that if a man does not work, neither shall he eat. In other words, he expected all able-bodied people to be self-sufficient and earn their keep.
HELLO! Preach!!

Quote:
Remember the lame man at the pool of Bethesda, which is called Beautiful, in John 5:6-8 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,


Notice that when Jesus saw that he had been in his condition for a long time that when he asked him if he wanted to get well, the first thing the man gave him was an excuse. Jesus, didn't even address his excuse, he just told him, GET UP! He did not sit there and pat the man on the back and give him statistics about the number of people who are born lame or became lame as a result of war or some other environmental condition. He did not say, well... unemployment is high, and if you get up and start walking and eventually working, that's going to put someone else out of a job, so why don't you just continue to sit there until the economy gets better. No, he simply said, GET UP! Pick up! and Walk!

For some people, they have been ill to the conditions of poverty for a long time, and each time someone has given them leads for jobs, and information about programs to help them move forward, they come up with excuses, and like the man at the pool of Bethesda, someone who wasn't filled with excuses, but hungry to rise above their condition, beats them to it.

Also, notice that Jesus did not care about government regulations because it all happened on the Sabbath. He was like I don't care about the Sabbath, the economy, high unemployment, nobody is accepting applications on a Sunday! Jesus said, stop looking at your circumstances... GET UP! Pick up! and Walk!

Wish I would have seen your post earlier. I would have given you major reps. You need to be an inspirational speaker. Or a preacher. School these fools on the gospel and about taking personal responsibility. They always making excuses for people. They will never learn that you choose these things in life. You live in the United States of America. Get up off your behind and do something with yourself and your life. Nobody is going to give it to you.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:18 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,866,083 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
HELLO! Preach!!



Wish I would have seen your post earlier. I would have given you major reps. You need to be an inspirational speaker. Or a preacher. School these fools on the gospel and about taking personal responsibility. They always making excuses for people. They will never learn that you choose these things in life. You live in the United States of America. Get up off your behind and do something with yourself and your life. Nobody is going to give it to you.
Yes. Get up off your behind and get one of those jobs that don't exist.

Sorry I brought up the 'what would Jesus think?' thing ... it was tongue-in-cheek, as I am not religious. But, now that I opened that can of worms, cheese Louise, even I can quote scripture back and forth all day to refute your positions -- just as you can selectively quote scripture to support.

What fun. I'll start (though I'll get bored with this very quickly -- the specious quoting of scriptures is an infamous topic on which much has been written) ... but what the hey ... Jesus also said:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."
"Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone"
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Anyway, a better question is: if Jesus is lord why not simply touch the welfare bound and instill in them the qualities of incentive and motivation so that they will then find the ability to help themselves?

And, while he's at it, maybe he can touch some industrialists to create some jobs ....
just sayin'
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:51 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
10,400 posts, read 15,535,781 times
Reputation: 4283
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Yes. Get up off your behind and get one of those jobs that don't exist.

Sorry I brought up the 'what would Jesus think?' thing ... it was tongue-in-cheek, as I am not religious. But, now that I opened that can of worms, cheese Louise, even I can quote scripture back and forth all day to refute your positions -- just as you can selectively quote scripture to support.

What fun. I'll start (though I'll get bored with this very quickly -- the specious quoting of scriptures is an infamous topic on which much has been written) ... but what the hey ... Jesus also said:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."
"Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone"
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Anyway, a better question is: if Jesus is lord why not simply touch the welfare bound and instill in them the qualities of incentive and motivation so that they will then find the ability to help themselves?

And, while he's at it, maybe he can touch some industrialists to create some jobs ....
just sayin'
That scripture was totally taken out of context , let a non-religious (AA) " who does have a Relationship
with Jesus " Shed some light on that particular scripture " if a man does not work neither shall he eat" .

Every Hebrew or Jewish man or woman knew what this meant , as theirs society "had a custom called"
GLEANING FOR THEIRS WELFARE SYSTEM...where the POOR alway had a avenue of feeding themselves
THUR WORKING>>>GLEANING check this LINK OUT!!!!
Gleaning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Howest2008; 06-17-2012 at 02:03 PM..
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:13 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,866,083 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
Some people are not even remotely interested in hearing the "truth" because it simply doesn't support
their's many agenda's , (which we will not get into)...LOL...let's just say that you are talking to a 'brick wall"...and leave it at that....
Yes, well, I have always enjoyed working with masonry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
That scripture was totally taken out of context , let a non-religious (AA) " who does have a Relationship
with Jesus " Shed some light on that particular scripture " if a man does not work neither shall he eat" .

Every Hebrew or Jewish man or woman knew what this meant , as theirs society "had a custom called"
GLEANING FOR THEIRS WELFARE SYSTEM...where the POOR alway had a avenue of feeding themselves
THUR WORKING>>>GLEANING check this LINK OUT!!!!
Gleaning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Boy, I had to go back and figure out what you were referring to ... I finally realized you actually read all of the Jesus talk that Juelle had posted ... I have to admit, when I see scripture quoting raising its head in a thread, I tend to gloss over it. As I said earlier: specious quoting of scriptures is an infamous technique and topic. It was my error to open that door with my tongue-in-cheek crack about Jesus, so fair game for Juelle to respond ... it was late and I just failed to see what was coming as a result.

So now the religious will descend on the thread with their lessons ... oh well, my bad ...
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
7,484 posts, read 10,423,156 times
Reputation: 8955
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Umm....it should be obvious that when he talks about "educated elite" he isn't referring to middle-class trades folk.
Ummm what are you talking about I am not a middle class trade folk (and not that there is anything wrong with that) Since when did the US middle class individual earn over 115K per year? Since when did trade schools put out degrees?

Wrong again bucko! You always think you know what you're talking about when you don't.


I hold 2 degrees from 2 different major Universities...no trade school on my CV

BTW I think you did not read carefully the point he was making...he thinks that anyone who is expert at what they do (that is me!) is bad for society...or how did he put it? I think he thinks anyone with a degree is bad for society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Your babbling on about how the poor give the rich their power is meaningless to this discussion. If there is any shame in the exchange, it should be leveled at those sophisticated and expert at what they do ... that is the level at which knowledgeable will is applied to taking advantage of others at the expense of society and the environment -- purely for personal gain and gratification.
Read carefully user_id

Last edited by TVC15; 06-17-2012 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:33 PM
 
31 posts, read 40,231 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Yes. Get up off your behind and get one of those jobs that don't exist.

Sorry I brought up the 'what would Jesus think?' thing ... it was tongue-in-cheek, as I am not religious. But, now that I opened that can of worms, cheese Louise, even I can quote scripture back and forth all day to refute your positions -- just as you can selectively quote scripture to support.

What fun. I'll start (though I'll get bored with this very quickly -- the specious quoting of scriptures is an infamous topic on which much has been written) ... but what the hey ... Jesus also said:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."
"Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone"
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Anyway, a better question is: if Jesus is lord why not simply touch the welfare bound and instill in them the qualities of incentive and motivation so that they will then find the ability to help themselves?

And, while he's at it, maybe he can touch some industrialists to create some jobs ....
just sayin'

Well, since you tongued and cheeked your question, you received an answer whether you were satisfied with it or not. I suspect, you are all up in arms because you actually received one. However, pick any one of the commentaries on the subject of working for your keep. I took the liberty of highlighting the crucial points in red.


Barnes' Notes on the BibleFor even when we were with you, this we commanded you - It would seem from this that the evil of which the apostle here complains had begun to operate even when he was with them. There were those who were disposed to be idle, and who needed the solemn command of an apostle to induce them to labor.
That if any would not work, neither should he eat - That is, at the public expense. They should not be supported by the church. This was a maxim among the Jews (see Wetstein, in loc.), and the same sentiment may be found in Homer, Demosthenes, and Pythagoras; see Grotius, in loc. The maxim is founded in obvious justice, and is in accordance with the great law under which our Creator has placed us; Genesis 3:19. That law, in the circumstances, was benevolent, and it should be our aim to carry it out in reference to ourselves and to others. The law here laid down by the apostle extends to all who are able to work for a living, and who will not do it, and binds us not to contribute to their support if they will not labor for it. It should be regarded as extending:
(1) to the members of a church - who, though poor, should not be supported by their brethren, unless they are willing to work in any way they can for their own maintenance.
(2) to those who beg from door to door, who should never be assisted unless they are willing to do all they can do for their own support. No one can be justified in assisting a lazy man. In no possible circumstances are we to contribute to foster indolence. A man might as properly help to maintain open vice.
Clarke's Commentary on the BibleIf any would not work, neither should he eat - This is a just maxim, and universal nature inculcates it to man. If man will work, he may eat; if he do not work, he neither can eat, nor should he eat. The maxim is founded on these words of the Lord: In the sweat of thy brow thou shall eat bread. Industry is crowned with God's blessing; idleness is loaded with his curse. This maxim was a proverb among the Jews. Men who can work, and will rather support themselves by begging, should not get one morsel of bread. It is a sin to minister to necessities that are merely artificial.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleFor even when we were with you,.... At Thessalonica in person, and first preached the Gospel to them,
we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat; the Ethiopic version reads in the singular number, "when I was with you, I commanded you"; using the above words, which were a sort of a proverb with the Jews, and is frequently used by them, , or , "that if a man would not work, he should not eat" (q). And again (r),
"he that labours on the evening of the sabbath (or on weekdays), he shall eat on the sabbath day; and he who does not labour on the evening of the sabbath, from whence shall he eat (or what right and authority has he to eat) on the sabbath day?''
Not he that could not work through weakness, bodily diseases, or old age, the necessities of such are to be distributed to, and they are to be taken care of, and provided with the necessaries of life by the officers of the church; but those that can work, and will not, ought to starve, for any assistance that should be given them by the members of the church, or the officers of it.
(q) Bere**** Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 13. 1. Echa Rabbati, fol. 48. 4. & Midrash Koholet, fol. 65. 4. (r) T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 3. 1.
People's New Testament 3:10 This we commanded you. Even then he gave a command that if any refused to work for their food, they should be refused support by others. He who is able to work, and unwilling, should not be fed.
Wesley's Notes 3:10 Neither let him eat - Do not maintain him in idleness.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary3:6-15 Those who have received the gospel, are to live according to the gospel.Such as could work, and would not, were not to be maintained in idleness. Christianity is not to countenance slothfulness, which would consume what is meant to encourage the industrious, and to support the sick and afflicted. Industry in our callings as men, is a duty required by our calling as Christians. But some expected to be maintained in idleness, and indulged a curious and conceited temper. They meddled with the concerns of others, and did much harm. It is a great error and abuse of religion, to make it a cloak for idleness or any other sin. The servant who waits for the coming of his Lord aright, must be working as his Lord has commanded. If we are idle, the devil and a corrupt heart will soon find us somewhat to do. The mind of man is a busy thing; if it is not employed in doing good, it will be doing evil. It is an excellent, but rare union, to be active in our own business, yet quiet as to other people's. If any refused to labour with quietness, they were to note him with censure, and to separate from his company, yet they were to seek his good by loving admonitions. The Lords is with you while you are with him. Hold on your way, and hold on to the end. We must never give over, or tire in our work. It will be time enough to rest when we come to heaven.
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