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Old 06-22-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,999,178 times
Reputation: 4365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
They didn't have welfare lumps back in those days. Tribal societies would not have put up with someone not doing their fair share of the work.
Interesting that you mention "fair share of work" and what's more interesting is that you think those on welfare aren't doing it while the wealthier folks are.... Tell me, is someone that is living off their inherited passive investments doing their fair share of work? Has Bill Gates done his fair share of work for his billions? Is a unit of labor from the likes of Warren Buffet worth thousands more than an auto-mechanic?

So these people are doing their "fair share", while someone working (the majority of welfare recipients work or are in a household with working members) and getting welfare to meet bare subsistence in today's society is not...

But, your comment about tribal societies isn't accurate.. Tribal societies, like today's civilizations, had members that didn't do their "fair share". For example, pregnant women and children didn't do their "fair share". And who is receiving the vast majority of welfare in the US? Mothers and children... But unlike today, people weren't complaining about this "welfare" because people recognized that these individuals would one day become productive members of the tribe. Tribes also had protected elite, just like today, that didn't do their fair share either. The chefs, shamans, etc.

As for flat taxes, they would make sense only if one's income was solely determined by one's efforts. It is only in the middle-class income ranges where a flat tax makes sense as it is only here that income is highly correlated with hours worked, etc. But that is pretty much what we have today! A family, after deductions, pays 10% of the first 18,000 and then 15% on income between 18,000 and 71,000. So for families making under around $100,000, effectively the middle-class, we have a rough flat-tax with the caveat that those with poverty level incomes don't pay any due to deductions and/or earned income credits. But let's say that we implemented a 15% fat tax, what would happen? The poor would pay more taxes, the middle-class would pay a bit more, and the rich would pay dramatically less. Funny that its always the low/mid income folks, who wouldn't benefit at all, that are advocating for it?

Last edited by user_id; 06-22-2012 at 12:37 PM..
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:27 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,323,682 times
Reputation: 29336
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
... people recognized that these individuals would one day become productive members of the tribe.
Unlike absolute contrarions who provide no value added.

Chief and shamans did provide something many others can't. Even in this enlightened age it's called guidance, direction and leadership.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,999,178 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Chief and shamans did provide something many others can't. Even in this enlightened age it's called guidance, direction and leadership.
There were a protected class that didn't have to work and provided no more value to the tribes than other elder members. Shamans were often insane......an interesting outlet for the mentally ill....

Tribes have similar political structures as today's civilizations....just on a smaller scale. It is only band societies, groups we have little observational knowledge of, that were relatively egalitarian. But these groups were essentially family units....and families have their own version of "welfare". Regardless, instead of conflicting with today's welfare systems, you find similar systems in tribal societies which demonstrates that humans have understood the benefits of "welfare" for a long time...
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:52 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,323,682 times
Reputation: 29336
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
There were a protected class that didn't have to work and provided no more value to the tribes than other elder members. Shamans were often insane......an interesting outlet for the mentally ill....

Tribes have similar political structures as today's civilizations....just on a smaller scale. It is only band societies, groups we have little observational knowledge of, that were relatively egalitarian. But these groups were essentially family units....and families have their own version of "welfare". Regardless, instead of conflicting with today's welfare systems, you find similar systems in tribal societies which demonstrates that humans have understood the benefits of "welfare" for a long time...
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:44 PM
 
667 posts, read 513,620 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Oh good ... let's have an adventure in the wilderness ... you bring your fiction ... I'll bring science ... we'll see who survives. I should have seen it coming ...

You define "it" as individual "gain"? That's what you interpret as your god's intention: material pyramids of wealth resting on a massive base of poverty. Perfect. god's love revealed in human brilliance. As for "personal responsibility": is self-absorbed separation from your society as a whole your definition of responsibility? Is perpetuating the teaching of guilt and humiliation through organized religion your idea of responsibility? (And I assume when you used the personal pronoun "you", you did not mean me personally -- because you surely don't want to open that can of worms where I drag out my personal resume to demonstrate responsibilities undertaken on behalf of my family, community, nation, and society.)


Actually I have a very well educated idea how primitive hunter-gatherer societies functioned ... and modern societies. Among other things, daily activities weren't considered "work", in today's sense ... they were simply part of living. Indeed, the people in primitive societies, even today, don't "work" particularly hard at all. You would consider their lives very harsh in some respects, but only because of your contemporary expectations. They don't labor hard and stressfully over long hours as we do. Their natural intelligence is too wise for that. They do not disconnect from nature and go off into pointless fantasies such as the christian work ethic which really serves only the feudal masters. There is nothing to gain for them in living outside of natural rhythms to create an illusion of permanence.

Primitive societies are generally very egalitarian. The hunting and gathering are matter-of-fact activities enjoined with enthusiasm by all -- and without judgmental criticism or ridicule or pyramidal condemnation and class assignments. Children are not put to work. Children play at imitating the actions of the elders -- and, at certain ages, are initiated by rights of passage into the pride of adult status at which time they are excited to produce on behalf of their tribe and families.
It is obviously your choice as to what you want to build your foundation on. Science can be a wonderful thing for many applications but not all for me.

Speaking of science, do you believe in evolution?

Last edited by TNEC_Dad; 06-22-2012 at 01:57 PM..
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:57 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,842,546 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNEC_Dad View Post
I see your intolerance could not keep hidden. It is obviously your choice as to what you want to build your foundation on. Science can be a wonderful thing for many applications but not all for me.

Speaking of science, do you believe in evolution?
MY "intolerance"? FOMCL. You are a humorist as well as religious tax crusader

Evolution? Well, I admit it is hard to swallow given the kinds of responses we see from some on this forum ... but, yes, I do. There are always going to be retrogressive traits.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:07 PM
 
667 posts, read 513,620 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
MY "intolerance"? FOMCL. You are a humorist as well as religious tax crusader

Evolution? Well, I admit it is hard to swallow given the kinds of responses we see from some on this forum ... but, yes, I do. There are always going to be retrogressive traits.
Well, you call the Bible fiction yet I have not tried to discredit your book. So yes, intolerance indeed. I really try not to be religious in the general sense but it is something I have to work on constantly. Jesus did not have kind words for religious people.

I see you like to label people as well as use icons. That is cute. I think those are human responses to something you fear. I have done the same thing but hope to curb that in the future.

So, what happens in evolution? You did say you would share your information.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:11 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,842,546 times
Reputation: 3806
When I refer to primitive tribal societies, I am pretty much referring to small hunter-gatherer bands ... which are typically very small family units. Sometimes one family. More often several. But always numbering under the Dunbar maximum. Tribes did obviously get bigger and bigger ... and with expansion they became more and more convoluted with hierarchies, understandably.

Aside from this most fascinating tangent, however, -- one of my favorite subjects -- there is another curious misconception that rages about welfare related to budgets ... and especially to California at this time given its economic struggles (the budget) and high rate of welfare recipients. And that is the ranting that California can't afford to be involved in welfare support programs -- as if the monies paid out go into poor people's pockets and never comes back out ... as if it goes into their overseas savings and investment accounts to build secret wealth of fabulous proportions.

One thing about the welfare poor for sure is: every penny paid, whether in direct TANF funds, or to vouchers for housing, food, transportation, education, etc. -- ALL of it, IMMEDIATELY goes right back into the California economy ... which economy, last time I checked reports on the C D Forum, needs injections of cash. Food, housing, clothing, medical services, education -- all benefit to salaries and manufacturers, growers, processors, wholesalers, shippers, retailers.

And the cost of NOT injecting this cash into the California economy, especially at this time, would be not only in reduction of those businesses -- but would also be reflected in costs associated with increased crime and punishment.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,999,178 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNEC_Dad View Post
Speaking of science, do you believe in evolution?
What's next? Are you going to start asking folks whether they think the earth is flat or not?
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,999,178 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
When I refer to primitive tribal societies, I am pretty much referring to small hunter-gatherer bands ... which are typically very small family units.
Which is unfortunate because those are band societies.....not tribal societies.
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