El Monte Police struck, shocked man who Died

[steel7]

Originally Posted by notmeofficer

Lets see the evidence copwatchers and bashers... I for one dislike the internet expert mentality

and lets see one of you wrestle with some violent crazy schzoid person

One day we will have Star Trek phasers.. then the brutal use of force will be a thing of the past.

Did you miss the police were injured?

They werent killed though. The cops didnt have to kill the man. I know all about the brotherhood in the police dept. I know a guy whos a chp & he tells me all about it. The NYC cops are the worse & the L.A.P.D. comes in 2nd.

[notmeofficer]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

While I agree 100% it is too early for this to be judged from our armchairs, I would respond in general terms to what notmeofficer has just written above about wrestling a schizoid person:
I find it somewhat curious that police and fire and wildlife officials have protocols and tools for safely capturing wild animals that enter our communities, and return them mostly unharmed to their own environments -- or otherwise deal with them in safety ... nets, traps, tranquilizer darts, etc. ... Yet when a person is roaming out of control the response is to physically overwhelm and truncheon the individual. The police would never wrestle with a bear. They would tranquilize if possible, and net. If a lion was on the loose and rampaging, it might be shot, of course, but only as a last resort. We have tazers. We have tear gas and other chemicals to neutralize unruly crowds. We have nets which no berserker can tear to pieces.

The job of law enforcement in these rare situations is certainly tough ... but to respond that brutality is the only protocol is, frankly, at least uncreative thinking -- and, also frankly, nuts.

The use of force continuum is clear.. as is the use of force policy

Police can only use that amount of force to overcome resistance. The force used must be reasonable, necessary and fully justified by the circumstances.

That being said you can go from talking to shooting in a millisecond

Generally it goes like this
Less than lethal

Verbal judo
Handholds/wrist locks/ pressure points compliance holds, Punches /kicks to boney areas
Pepper Spray
Taser

Potentially lethal

Flashlight to boney areas (not head)
Baton (boney areas not head)
Bean Bag guns or Arwen rubber bullet guns (which most bad guys laugh at)
Motor Vehicle

Lethal

Firearm or head strikes
Motor vehicle


I sat on a skunkworks section trying out all kinds of wazoo stuff.. the net.. the chains.. the silly string stuff out of a backpack flame thrower dealy bob.. all kinds of grapple devices...

In a roundy round they dont work..lots of times it happens so fast that you go from talking to fighting and trying to keep someone way badder/stronger/more desperate than you.. not scared of jail.. without respect for any authority.. perhaps a striker not wanting another one from taking your gun out of your holster and shoving it up your rectum

People ALWAYS (almost) choose their fate.. it is the very very rare case where a policeman says.. yea.. Im just going to kill you for fun... when that happens they go to jail.. just like everyone else.. and then they really get to think about their rectum.... :-)

Again.. until we perfect the star trek phaser... were still in the dark ages when it comes to force and compliance

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by notmeofficer

The use of force continuum is clear.. as is the use of force policy

Police can only use that amount of force to overcome resistance. The force used must be reasonable, necessary and fully justified by the circumstances.

That being said you can go from talking to shooting in a millisecond

Generally it goes like this
Less than lethal

Verbal judo
Handholds/wrist locks/ pressure points compliance holds, Punches /kicks to boney areas
Pepper Spray
Taser

Potentially lethal

Flashlight to boney areas (not head)
Baton (boney areas not head)
Bean Bag guns or Arwen rubber bullet guns (which most bad guys laugh at)
Motor Vehicle

Lethal

Firearm or head strikes
Motor vehicle


I sat on a skunkworks section trying out all kinds of wazoo stuff.. the net.. the chains.. the silly string stuff out of a backpack flame thrower dealy bob.. all kinds of grapple devices...

In a roundy round they dont work..lots of times it happens so fast that you go from talking to fighting and trying to keep someone way badder/stronger/more desperate than you.. not scared of jail.. without respect for any authority.. perhaps a striker not wanting another one from taking your gun out of your holster and shoving it up your rectum

People ALWAYS (almost) choose their fate.. it is the very very rare case where a policeman says.. yea.. Im just going to kill you for fun... when that happens they go to jail.. just like everyone else.. and then they really get to think about their rectum.... :-)

Again.. until we perfect the star trek phaser... were still in the dark ages when it comes to force and compliance

That's a good description of the confrontational variety ... and it is certainly the case that when LEO engage a bear or other wild animal threat, they don't try to converse too much up front. () Personally, I think cops try to have too much conversation with most confrontations as it is. And the nicer you are about it, the more likely you'll get assaulted. Not to say I think that being a jerk is called for at all. Just less conversation is better, more caution (and back up), and Spiderman for a partner with the net.

What galls me is when multiple units respond, and there is a gathering around a problem individual ... I advocate strongly that when there is overwhelming force available, that force should not be hands on ... it should defer to equipment and trained protocol. Pack frenzy is a triggered event that humans are very susceptible to ... I very much understand how hard it is to exert self control once the switch is flipped.