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I do agree with you about Fresno's downtown. Its pretty pathetic given the size of the city even after 50 years of trying. My father's parents and sisters lived in Fresno and I remember coming down there as a small kid in the late 1960s. Fulton Mall had just gone in and my mom and aunt would take me and my cousin down there to do some shopping. It wasn't San Francisco of course, but it was pretty fun for a seven or eight year old to run around in. Plus the new courthouse and Del Webb building had just been completed. I watched the Fulton Mall regularly as I grew up and by the time I was 20 it went from an urban redevelopment jewel to almost dead and blighted. I don't know what they could have done differently - I know they made a great nationally recognized effort in the 60s. Maybe they fell short in what they had planned or didn't keep up the momentum. Maybe relentless northward suburban sprawl would have killed it regardless. Its a damn shame though.
Yet you labeled the thread "city of worsts" and have nothing good to put in the thread? The thread presents a different viewpoint than what you just said.
If you don't hate Fresno then you should be OK with information that is good about the area as well as the bad. It is an area of contrasts, both good and bad, not all bad.
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Shifting sources of "data" isn't a true argument, especially when the one I cited, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, is legit and the data is current.
Shifting sources of data? Nope I linked to the same BLS site you posted when I used the state numbers. Never said it wasn't legit.
I added the city numbers since the BLS is MSA wide, the Fresno MSA is about the same geographic size as Connecticut. The city of Fresno is only about 50% of the MSA workforce, and places like Mendota or Huron with 35-40% unemployment are 35 miles away but included in the BLS number.
I would think someone interested in the city of Fresno would want info specific to the immediate urban area (Fresno plus Clovis) not info that includes farm towns 35 miles away.
Both sources are legit, I just added info that is more pinpointed to the city not the larger county.
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Fresno's High Temperature forecast as of August 6, 2012 for the period August 6, 2012 through August 13, 2012, according to the Weather Channel:
102, 105, 105, 106, 109, 109, 107, 105 (Fahrenheit)
No, it won't be humid, but that's hot no matter how you slice it. You can try to make it seem less bad by comparing those temps to that of Las Vegas (106, 108, 109, 109 the next four days) or Phoenix (109, 109, 113, 113) or Palm Springs (109, 108, 111, 113) or Baghdad, Iraq (111, 113, 115, 113), I suppose. But people don't think of California as having such hot weather, so it's fair to let them know. And some places regarded as being HOT will have temps that are similar to those of Fresno these next few days, so that means at the very least that Fresno has to potential to be nearly as hot sometimes as those places regarded widely as being very hot.
I would say Fresno has nice springs and autumns, though they are unpredictable and sometimes short.
If you have followed my posts as you said, then you know I don't disagree.
I have often pointed out Fresno gets an average of about 35 to 36 days per year over 100 degrees. (feel free to search for posts where I point that out) Facts about 100 Degree Temperatures at Fresno
The other areas you brought up run:
Las Vegas - average of 70 days/year over 100 degrees
Phoenix - average of 110 days/year over 100 degrees
Yes Fresno gets hot, but just 1/3 to 1/2 as many days a year over 100 degrees as those other areas. Lets not leave the impression that the very hot season runs as long here as those other two.
Additionally, to be fair, lets look at the overnight low temps in those cities over those same days you posted above. Daily low temperatures Aug 6 to Aug 13 2012 according to the Weather Channel
Fresno (70, 73, 76, 76, 77, 78, 75, 71)
Las Vegas (83, 84, 86, 86, 86, 86, 85, 83)
Phoenix (91, 91, 93, 92, 91, 92, 92, 92)
Baghdad (82, 82, 83, 85, 85, 85, 84)
(not sure why you felt a need to bring up Baghdad, expecting some people to move to/from there after reading this thread )
So the comparison cities stay 10 to 20 degrees warmer overnight. I've said before that I know someone who moved to Phoenix but didn't realize before moving that even at 11PM it was still much hotter than Fresno.
Same thing happens in Sacramento. It sees about 24 days/year over 100 degrees but then cools overnight into the 60-70 degree range, even lower than Fresno at night.
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Yes, some of the issue is geography-driven but whatever the cause the fact is that Fresno's air quality is poor for much of the year....<comment on this edited sentence next> To its credit, things have improved slightly recently in the Fresno area.
Its seen a big improvement, not "slightly improved".
The number of times the federal 8 hour ozone standard is violated has dropped dramatically in the last decade or so. Fresno days over the 8 hour federal ozone standard (measured at the Sierra SkyPark monitor):
2000 - 109 days
2001 - 130 days
2002 - 131 days
vs.
2008 -39 days
2009 - 34 days
2010 - 35 days MRGDSITEMYR Display
Still a lot of work left to improve as the Lung Association ranking shows.
But that reduction in only 10 years is a big improvement, not a "slightly".
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There are 75,000 asthma sufferers here out of a population of 900,000. That asthma stat comes from Time magazine's article "The 10 Most Air-Polluted Cities in the U.S." if you want to look it up. The Fresno Bee itself has run numerous articles on the area's poor air quality and asthma issues.
Those numbers are what about 8%-8.5% of the population number? CDC research says the overall US asthma prevalence rate is 8.4%. Looks like Time just eyeballed using the national number. Products - Data Briefs - Number 94 - May 2012
I'm not downplaying the seriousness (I have a family member in SoCal who has asthma), but lets use better numbers and a better source than Time magazine.
Fresno County is roughly #12 out of 45 (some counties were combined). Interestingly the counties/areas with higher rates were scattered from the Oregon border to SoCal, no pattern I can see.
It is a statewide problem that all Californians should pay closer attention to and ask questions about.
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Cherry picking. Now should I go ahead and try to find more sites with rankings showing Fresno with bad drivers?
Seems like you had cherry picked to only use lists where Fresno ranked low. What's wrong with also including lists that showed a different result for the city and letting readers analyze the sources?
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And do remember that public transportation is lacking in Fresno. Plus everything is spread out. So you'll have to drive a lot, which will increase your risk.
Transportation? Fresno's public transportation system is good for a city its size (the key item is relative to population size). Most midsized cities will not have great transporation like larger denser cities.
Yes it is because the FBI has only released preliminary 2011 data. They state that on their website that the SF Business site pulled from.
But if you want me to use the preliminary 2011 numbers (Sorry, if you want to verify my numbers you'll need to do some math with the data): 2011 Violent Crime Rate per 1000 residents
Fresno - 5.82
Long Beach - 6.1
San Francisco - 6.56
Sacramento - 7.10 FBI — Table 4
So yes the property crime rate runs higher in Fresno but violent crime rates per 1,000 residents still runs lower than in the cities I used.
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Fresno has CSUF, Fresno Pacific, Fresno City College, and SJVC, Heald, DeVry, ITT, and University of Phoenix.
And Alliant University (the old CSPP), California Christian College, Willow International Center (soon to be a full JC campus), UEI, and several other trade colleges.
You mentioned ITT which is next door in the city of Clovis. So lets also add San Joaquin College of Law (moved to larger Clovis campus from Fresno), Institute of Technology, Kaplan, etc.
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Boston's population is about 625,000 vs. Fresno's 500,000 but Boston has many more post-secondary educational institutions than Fresno:
From Wikipedia's "List of colleges and universities in metropolitan Boston" article:
There are a total of 52 institutions of higher education in the defined region, including 7 junior colleges, 14 colleges that primarily grant baccalaureate and master's degrees, 8 research universities, and 23 special-focus institutions. Of these, 50 are non-profit organizations while 3 are for-profit businesses, and 48 are private ventures while 5 are public institutions (4 are run by the state of Massachusetts and 1 is operated by the city of Quincy).
Now of course that's not an ideal comparison as Boston is a much older and wealthier city. But it shows how a place not terribly larger places a lot of emphasis on training and education.
Its a bad comparison for several reasons. Older/wealthier is not the only one.
You compared city populations but then used Wikipedia which said "Some are located within Boston proper while some are located in neighboring cities and towns, but all are within the 128/95/1 loop." So you have a lot more population to add in from places like Quincy, Newton, etc.
Additionally, colleges don't spring up overnight. It takes time to found and build a college. Fresno might have 500,000 residents today but in 1950 it only had 91,669 while the city of Boston (just the city not metro area) had 801,444. In 1910 Fresno only had 24,892 residents while the city of Boston (not the metro area) was 670,585.
Boston is not just older, but has been a larger city for much longer. I'd expect it to have more colleges/universities.
Fresno does need more higher education opportunities, but give it time to catch up to population growth. There have been new higher ed opportunities open just in the last 5-10 years. And that UCMerced campus should have been in Fresno.
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Downtowns
Oh absolutely it became a victim of northern sprawl. Addtionally, if you check property records a number of buildings have been owned by absentee out-of-towners who didn't care.
But there was some good new construction investment happening just before the recession started. The new Federal Courthouse (now tallest building in the city), the Convention Center Tower, etc. There were other projects that were going to start but the recession dried up financing.
Some owners have been finallly fixing up the old downtown buildings. I love the restoration done on the 90 year old Kress Building on Fulton Mall. They stipped off the 1950s siding and restored the exterior and interior. Hopefully other building owners will follow that lead.
The Mural District construction got slowed by the economy but is still moving forward. Next year will see the start of another couple of hundred new apartments built in that area, charging north Fresno level rents.
Also, downtown property owners have formed a PBID agency and are taxing themselves for improvements. That never happened before even though other cities formed them (Sacramento's downtown PBID was formed in 1995). The group will use the money for events, marketing, security, etc in the downtown core.
Downtown has been a problem area but a younger generation seems to look at it differently and is pushing new things there. Its similiar to the "young turks" who stepped forward to improve downtown San Jose back in the 1980s/1990s. http://www.sjdowntown.com/pdf/Herhold.pdf
Give Fresno's version of the "young turks" a decade or two.
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Drunkeness
In 2010 Men's Health ranked Fresno as "America's Drunkest City." Fresno had the most liver disease, most DUI arrests, and most DUI-related deaths.[/quote]
Wrong details if you are talking about this (you didn't link so I assume this is the info you misread or misremembered): Fresno, CA: MensHealth.com
Yes it topped that list, although they don't seem to disclose the weighting. It's also not clear to me if the list is metro areas including rural areas ouside the city. But the details are 2nd for liver disease, 4th DUI arrests, 16th DUI-related deaths.
That last item is interesting. I don't see the year they used, but in California in 2010 the state office of Traffic Safety had Fresno as 13th out of the 13 largest cities in the state with the lowest rate of injuries/deaths from DUI accidents. I wish the Mens Health ranking had more methodolgy info to determine the discrepancy. California Office of Traffic Safety (OTS) - Grants
So yes, Fresno has problems. I don't say they aren't there. But I'm also not going to deny there are also many good things about the area. That seems like the fair thing to do, wouldn't you agree?
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughtful reply and to provide some useful stats and links. My thoughts are below.
My post title and intentions
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Yet you labeled the thread "city of worsts" and have nothing good to put in the thread? The thread presents a different viewpoint than what you just said.
You're being overly sensitive. I never attacked Fresno like other posters have done in this forum numerous times. No attacks on the people or the city's appearance, for example. I only posted links to measures that most people mull when they are considering a move somewhere. You are indubitably very smart but not so prescient as to be able to read my mind and know my intentions. And the post title is accurate -- Fresno is a city that ranks among the worst in many categories. I didn't title it "I Hate Fresno" or "Fresno Stinks" or anything of that nature.
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If you don't hate Fresno then you should be OK with information that is good about the area as well as the bad. It is an area of contrasts, both good and bad, not all bad.
Most of your posts aren't the "good" about Fresno. They're more of the "it's not *quite* that bad" variety. More power to you if you can find something showing it has good air, low unemployment, and a low incidence of car thefts. Please go ahead and post. I'll do likewise.
Temperatures
You can list all the averages you want. While useful, they don't change Fresno's climate. It's hot in the summer and foggy in winter. Summers produce many mid- to high-90s days and a good score of 100+ temperatures. Whether or not Fresno is cooler in the evening than Vegas or Phoenix or has fewer "hot" days is irrelevant here. I never claimed Fresno was hotter than those places or had more 100+ days or didn't cool in the evenings. I said merely it has the potential to get nearly as hot here at times as some other places notable for their high temperatures in summer. I then posted some current temps to illustrate that.
Here's what Fresno (and other parts of the Valley) are looking at this week:
Special Weather Statement for East-central San Joaquin Valley, CA
Issued by The National Weather Service Hanford, CA
Tue, Aug 7, 2012, 4:30 AM PDT
... PROLONGED PERIOD OF VERY HOT WEATHER TO RETURN TO THE CENTRAL CALIFORNIA INTERIOR THIS WEEK...
STRONG HIGH PRESSURE ALOFT WILL BUILD OVER CENTRAL CALIFORNIA THIS WEEK. THIS WILL SET UP A PROLONGED PERIOD OF VERY HOT TEMPERATURES IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY AND ADJACENT FOOTHILLS... AND THE KERN COUNTY DESERT.
AFTERNOON TEMPERATURES BY THURSDAY ARE EXPECTED TO RANGE FROM 105 TO 111 DEGREES... AND CONTINUE THROUGH THE WEEKEND. FRIDAY AND SATURDAY LIKELY WILL BE THE HOTTEST DAYS OF THE PERIOD. AN INCREASING EAST TO SOUTHEAST FLOW OF MONSOON MOISTURE COULD MOVE IN BY SUNDAY... POSSIBLY LOWERING TEMPERATURES A FEW DEGREES. HOWEVER TRIPLE DIGIT HEAT WILL CONTINUE INTO THE FIRST PART OF NEXT WEEK.
EVEN IN THE SOUTHERN SIERRA NEVADA AND TEHACHAPI MOUNTAINS... HIGH TEMPERATURES WILL RANGE FROM 98 TO 105 DEGREES AT 4000 FEET... TO THE MID 80S TO AROUND 90 AT 8000 FEET.
RECORD OR NEAR RECORD HIGH TEMPERATURES AND HIGH MINIMUM TEMPERATURES ARE LIKELY IN FRESNO AND BAKERSFIELD LATER THIS WEEK.
The italic emphasis is mine. See? Fresno can get VERY HOT at times!
Education
You really didn't address the brain drain at all. You listed a few more institutions, though. Let's address one. The law school you mentioned, San Joaquin School of Law, is well regarded in the area. However, it is not ABA accredited, only state accredited, so its graduates can only practice in California. Moreover, in a state replete with the likes of law schools like Stanford, UCLA, Berkeley, Hastings, USD, Santa Clara, Pepperdine, Davis, et al, SJSL grads face a tall order gaining employment in areas outside of Fresno. Now of course all law grads are facing problems nowadays, but still something to keep in mind.
CSU Fresno is a very good school and part of a good system (the Calif. State University). Too bad so many of its grads leave Fresno because there aren't that many opportunities for them to put their education to work.
Air Quality
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Its seen a big improvement, not "slightly improved".
Greatly improved? Fresno routinely ranks terribly in air quality surveys to this day. I'll consider it "greatly improved" once it can break that string of dismal showings. Of course, Fresno's not unique in the Central Valley for doing having poor air quality. The entire Valley suffers to one degree or other. But Fresno County's air quality regularly rates among the worst in the Valley. That's indisputable. For example, check the out yesterday's San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District Daily Air Quality Forecast (it's by COUNTY):
SAN JOAQUIN
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 50 Good (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 58 Moderate (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Yellow
STANISLAUS
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 58 Moderate (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 67 Moderate (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Yellow
MERCED
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 47 Good (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 54 Moderate (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Yellow
MADERA
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 54 Moderate (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 87 Moderate (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Yellow
FRESNO
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 104 Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 104 Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Orange
KINGS
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 58 Moderate (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 74 Moderate (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Yellow
TULARE
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 97 Moderate (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 97 Moderate (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Yellow
KERN (SJV AIR BASIN PORTION)
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 97 Moderate (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 111 Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Orange
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK AND FOREST
AQI Forecast for 8/6/2012: 122 Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups (O3)
AQI Forecast for 8/7/2012: 111 Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups (O3)
School Flag color for 8/7/2012: Orange
Here's more. Unfortunately, the data is not as recent as I'd like to present (circa 2010) but if you check the 1000 Friends of Fresno.org website you'll see they give Fresno failing grades across the board for air quality. And they state that Fresno has 3x the national rate of children with asthma.
Information Sources
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Seems like you had cherry picked to only use lists where Fresno ranked low. What's wrong with also including lists that showed a different result for the city and letting readers analyze the sources?
I didn't have to cherry pick at all. Look up each area (cost of living, air quality, car thefts, etc.). It's very hard to find results that show Fresno in a good light. If I could've found some "good" (not "less bad" -- good) rankings I'd have been glad to put them alongside what I found.
FF, it appears that you're one who searches high and low to find some riposte that in the end only serves to show Fresno is not quite so bad as one of my links show. And you've glossed over or avoided some areas such as car theft, meth, etc.
Again, I only posted links to key areas that people should know about prior to moving here. There was virtually no opinion in my original post other than my surmise that given the higher-than-average cost of living, you don't get much bang for the buck in Fresno because it ranks poorly in key categories.
Now like I've said before, I like you, don't hate Fresno, and have found your posts to be among the useful ones in this forum that I've lurked in for years. I finally wanted to give back and start posting some useful info, like you have. However, there's a difference between presenting facts and reaching. For example, one good fact you've presented is that it's valid to mention Fresno's proximity to the mountains as a plus. An example of a reach by you is saying that Fresno State's hiring of 2-3 IT faculty is indicative of a trend in increased IT opportunities in Fresno. You're right, no place is perfect. You've lived and traveled to many places; so have I. We've seen the good and bad about many places then, including Fresno. Let's be honest about Fresno rather than spin the bad stuff. I'd like those bad areas to be fixed, not sugarcoated.
Last edited by HereThereEveryware; 08-07-2012 at 10:26 AM..
Using "facts" (collections of qualitative ranking by some organization we may or may not care about) to justify whether you should like a place seems like an exercise in....is there a stronger word for "futility"? Oh well, coming to C-D and expecting otherwise is like going to McDonalds and hoping to find a good steak.
Using "facts" (collections of qualitative ranking by some organization we may or may not care about) to justify whether you should like a place seems like an exercise in....is there a stronger word for "futility"? Oh well, coming to C-D and expecting otherwise is like going to McDonalds and hoping to find a good steak.
Good point. I am not hoping to make anyone dislike Fresno.
It's like a restaurant. You need to decide for yourself if you like it or not. But it's good to know beforehand key demographics such as whether it's expensive, requires reservations, hours of operation, accepts credit cards, etc.
This one didn't bash or even mention Fresno. However, it didn't include Fresno as a cheap place either. Mostly, aside from discussing the best places for your wallet, it said that CA is expensive and so is NYC.
Here is a small excerpt from the Forbes article:
In first place is Houston, where the average annual wage in 2011 was $59,838, eighth highest in the nation. What puts Houston at the top of the list is the region’s relatively low cost of living, which includes such things as consumer prices and services, utilities and transportation costs and, most importantly, housing prices: The ratio of the median home price to median annual household income in Houston is only 2.9, remarkably low for such a dynamic urban region; in San Francisco a house goes for 6.7 times the median local household income. Adjusted for cost of living, the average Houston wage of $59,838 is worth $66,933, tops in the nation.
Most of the rest of the top 10 are relatively buoyant economies with relatively low costs of living. These include Dallas-Fort Worth (fifth), Charlotte, N.C. (sixth), Cincinnati (seventh), Austin, Texas (eighth), and Columbus, Ohio (10th). These areas all also have housing affordability rates below 3.0 except for Austin, which clocks in at 3.5. Similar situations down the list include such mid-sized cities as Nashville, (11th), St.Louis (12th), Pittsburgh, (13th), Denver (15th) and New Orleans (16th).
Undeterred, I kept looking. I stumbled on this article saying Fresno was among the 10 cities with the lowest adjusted median household incomes:
Still kept looking. Broadened search so it wasn't just about COL. Saw this about the lower extremity amputation rate being higher in Fresno than elsewhere:
Fresno doesn't have much to recommend it imo, but not far from it in the Sierra foothills are some truly spectacular places to live (toward Shaver Lake etc). Personally I don't understand why anyone would choose to live in urban blight if they have an option not to. Like how some people who can afford to live in Lake Tahoe choose to live in Reno. Utterly mindboggling.
Transportation? Fresno's public transportation system is good for a city its size (the key item is relative to population size). Most midsized cities will not have great transporation like larger denser cities.
So since Fresno's public transportation is so good I assume you regularly opt for public transportation rather than driving your own vehicle.
More Temperatures
More about Fresno's ability to get hot, really, really hot:
Issued by The National Weather Service
Hanford, CA
Wed, Aug 8, 2012, 7:07 AM PDT
... EXCESSIVE HEAT WATCH REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM FRIDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SUNDAY EVENING...
AN EXCESSIVE HEAT WATCH REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM FRIDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SUNDAY EVENING FOR THE CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY AND THE ADJACENT FOOTHILLS.
* TEMPERATURES: WILL CLIMB TO BETWEEN 106 AND 112 DEGREES IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY BY FRIDAY... AND TO NEAR 106 DEGREES IN THE SURROUNDING FOOTHILLS.
* HEAT INDICES: WILL RANGE FROM 105 DEGREES IN THE LOWER FOOTHILLS TO AS HIGH AS 112 DEGREES IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY.
* IMPACTS: TEMPERATURES THIS HOT CAN CAUSE UNDUE STRESS ON THE HUMAN BODY... AS WELL AS PETS AND LIVESTOCK. THIS COULD LEAD TO SERIOUS MEDICAL CONDITIONS OF HEAT STROKE OR HEAT EXHAUSTION.
PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS...
AN EXCESSIVE HEAT WATCH MEANS THAT A PROLONGED PERIOD OF HOT TEMPERATURES IS EXPECTED. THE COMBINATION OF HOT TEMPERATURES AND HIGH HUMIDITY WILL COMBINE TO CREATE A DANGEROUS SITUATION IN WHICH HEAT ILLNESSES ARE POSSIBLE. DRINK PLENTY OF FLUIDS... STAY IN AN AIR CONDITIONED ROOM... STAY OUT OF THE SUN... AND CHECK UP ON RELATIVES AND NEIGHBORS.
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