Transgender student rights bill signed into law (San Diego: live in, activities)

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by legal_eagle

it is morally wrong to reinforce or foster transgenderism and other mental illnesses in children, and the schools are absolutely inappropriate places for such efforts.

Nobody's fostering it or reinforcing it, especially not the public schools.

If people afflicted with this terrible problem decide as adults to "change gender" by mutilating their own bodies...

Only adults can go through this surgery; a child cannot. And one doesn't "call yourself whatever you want" without intensive tests and a diagnosis from an M.D.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

A psychologist can't diagnose this disorder; a psychiatrist (M.D.) must diagnose it. This goes way beyond identifying with one's sisters. Do some reading.

A child at that age has no idea. The Psychiatrist would be an idiot. Young children can and are molded and just like the McMartin Pre School fiasco, the kids believed they were molested, told stories about it and .... none of it was true. A Psychiatrist would have to lead a child to such an involved conclusion. Kids have no concept at that age.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

Only adults can go through this surgery; a child cannot. And one doesn't "call yourself whatever you want" without intensive tests and a diagnosis from an M.D.

And that is the key, make no diagnosis of such a disorder UNTIL they are adults.

Are some people born with dual or no sex organs, yes and that is physically an obvious issue that needs to be addressed with them as children, but over an extended time. One thing would simply be to check the genes and see which sex they should be by that, You know "X" or "Y" as it were?

However if a child of school age seems to be feminine or masculine, so what? Who says that needs a sex identity change? Variations like that are normal.

I am sure no one says a lesbian who is masculine needs a sex change operation and Ditto for the very feminine "male" gay guy. It seems it applies only to children who can be molded and adults who feel they need the change, except for gays as it were.

If a gay man or woman feels they are, and act like the opposite sex, why do we not call that a psychological disorder and speak of fixing it???? Where is the difference, except in choice as an adult?

[MamaRed]

,A couple of reality-based ideas keep popping into my mind as I read all of your responses.
1) Privacy in the restroom. There are stalls! If you are boy to girl transgendered, girls' bathrooms have only stalls. If you're girl to boy, you don't really have the anatomy to use the urinals, so again, stalls.
2) Locker rooms/showers. Where I grew up in CA, these didn't come into play until middle/high school. Kids aren't showering anymore following regular PE, only after team practices/events, and that's only in high school. In order to exercise your transgender rights in these situations, you have to identify as the opposite gender. To me, this would mean you present yourself as this gender all the time. In other words, hormone driven teenage boys don't get to put a dress on one day and stroll into the showers to manhandle your daughters. (When my girls were teenagers, they had a few gay friends. One, in particular, really tried to play the ladies man. He wasn't fooling anyone but himself, and his friends were all happy and relieved when he finally accepted he's gay.) My point: our kids today are pretty in tune, and would probably self-police when it comes to kids trying to pull a fast one.
3) Sports teams. The focus here seems to be more on boys participating in girls' sports. I get where some could see that as an unfair advantage, but that wouldn't be a real issue until high school. Remember, in 8th grade it's not uncommon for girls to tower over boys. In high school, to play on the girls' teams, again, you would have to present yourself as a girl all the time. My son graduated from high school a year ago. He and his friends had no problem dressing up as girls for powder puff games or "opposite" day, but not one of them would have been able to present themselves as girls on a regular basis. (My son is the youngest, with 2 older sisters, and one of his friends is actually a triplet, with 2 sisters. According to some of you this may cause some gender confusion, but these are boys in every sense of the word.) Think about the ridicule and bullying a boy would face in going out for a girls team. Is it worth it to your "normal" teenage boy to open themselves up to that, just to be on a team?

With 2 daughters and a son, I do understand the concerns. In the day to day living with this law I think/hope, ultimately, it's going to be OK.

[9162]

Originally Posted by MamaRed

Think about the ridicule and bullying a boy would face in going out for a girls team. Is it worth it to your "normal" teenage boy to open themselves up to that, just to be on a team?

I think it is more of an issue with girls who think they are boys. To many, I think this represents the last frontier of the militant feminist agenda, with the relentless ongoing power struggle so many females seem committed to, against guys.

Boys grow up in a world, where they are forced to urinate in front of each other in public restrooms in urinals, they have to change their clothes in a locker room without privacy, unlike the girls in their lockeroom, and the guys have to shower with other guys in an open shower room. I can picture some tough bich taking full advantage of the situation, daring any guys around her to give her a hard time, after all, we know how persistent the lawsuits will be with the likes of the Gloria Allred type attorneys.

[Jackall]

Originally Posted by Tex?Il?

Passages please??

Rom 1:26-27

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Cor 6:9-10

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

By the way, sin is sin. God doesn't see homosexuals as great sinners and gives straight couples a wink and a nod. To Him it's all sin, but this is the wrong forum for this discussion. However, you wanted the scriptures, so here they are.

[04kL4nD]

What are the verses about slavery and shellfish? I'm curious.

[Jackall]

Originally Posted by 04kL4nD

What are the verses about slavery and shellfish? I'm curious.

I think the religion forum would be the more appropriate place to ask that. They even have an atheist/agnostic forum.

Although you might want to try Ps 14:1.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by Tex?Il?

Source?? Have you actually read the whole law??

I wonder that when one side claims the OTHER is radical and destroying society with their extremist ways, they may very well be looking in the mirror.

Its too bad, because I think conservatives have a lot of good, respectable ideas, that I can get on board with, but the knee-jerk reactionism doesn't bode well for their causes and alienates people.

If you want to play the conservative versus the liberal game on this one, then you would have to admti, there are a lot more conservatives around than any of us think: I know a few people, in CA who are considered anything but conservative and still think this law goes over the top. In fact there are a few here on CD who usually take liberals views who also are not excited about this. To me, this bill is missing common sense and has little to do with political views.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by MamaRed

,A couple of reality-based ideas keep popping into my mind as I read all of your responses.
1) Privacy in the restroom. There are stalls! If you are boy to girl transgendered, girls' bathrooms have only stalls. If you're girl to boy, you don't really have the anatomy to use the urinals, so again, stalls.
2) Locker rooms/showers. Where I grew up in CA, these didn't come into play until middle/high school. Kids aren't showering anymore following regular PE, only after team practices/events, and that's only in high school. In order to exercise your transgender rights in these situations, you have to identify as the opposite gender. To me, this would mean you present yourself as this gender all the time. In other words, hormone driven teenage boys don't get to put a dress on one day and stroll into the showers to manhandle your daughters. (When my girls were teenagers, they had a few gay friends. One, in particular, really tried to play the ladies man. He wasn't fooling anyone but himself, and his friends were all happy and relieved when he finally accepted he's gay.) My point: our kids today are pretty in tune, and would probably self-police when it comes to kids trying to pull a fast one.
3) Sports teams. The focus here seems to be more on boys participating in girls' sports. I get where some could see that as an unfair advantage, but that wouldn't be a real issue until high school. Remember, in 8th grade it's not uncommon for girls to tower over boys. In high school, to play on the girls' teams, again, you would have to present yourself as a girl all the time. My son graduated from high school a year ago. He and his friends had no problem dressing up as girls for powder puff games or "opposite" day, but not one of them would have been able to present themselves as girls on a regular basis. (My son is the youngest, with 2 older sisters, and one of his friends is actually a triplet, with 2 sisters. According to some of you this may cause some gender confusion, but these are boys in every sense of the word.) Think about the ridicule and bullying a boy would face in going out for a girls team. Is it worth it to your "normal" teenage boy to open themselves up to that, just to be on a team?

With 2 daughters and a son, I do understand the concerns. In the day to day living with this law I think/hope, ultimately, it's going to be OK.

some of what you say might make sense but some is assuming too much: I happen to go along with the thinking that a 6 year old doesn't really know he/she should be the other sex. Most little girls, exposed to boys all the time are going to be tom boys at that age and little boys exposed to girls will be more comfortable with girly things. Of course this depends on how the children are being raised. You give an example of triplets you know, but that is only one example. As for teens I don't care what the situation, most teen age girls would be very uncomfortable showering with boys or even seeing boys in the locker rooms.

If this is such as issue that a law has to put in place, then have a third choice: facilities for those who think they are transgender and for those who really are.