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Old 04-11-2018, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Paradise CA, that place on fire
2,003 posts, read 1,708,577 times
Reputation: 5836

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"Why do you all tolerate this? Why should the tax be based on what you pay for the property? That's arbitrary. It has ZERO to do with the amount of municipal services the residents of the property will consume...which is what should be charged.

The price is irrelevant. But the government wants to rent-seek....you allow them to do this, then have the gall to complain about how "unfair" the tax laws are. So either set up your situation so as to avoid them rent-seeking from you, or shut up, or change it."
by Phantompilot

Exactly.
A single person in a small, expensive home will likely use a fraction of the services what a family of six needs in a much larger, but less expensive home.
Nevertheless, the single person must pay property taxes two or three times higher than the large family in the big house, simply, because that little place is worth more.

Similarly, the owner of a light-weight, expensive sports car is taxed much higher than someone with a huge gas guzzler SUV, because he paid more for his sports car. The big SUV puts more wear and tear of the roads, but it doesn't matter to the DMV.

Socialism, by another name is what? Communism?
Certain posters here don't get it, unfortunately for all the other taxpayers.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:08 AM
 
6,089 posts, read 4,959,099 times
Reputation: 5985
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgforshort View Post
"Why do you all tolerate this? Why should the tax be based on what you pay for the property? That's arbitrary. It has ZERO to do with the amount of municipal services the residents of the property will consume...which is what should be charged.

The price is irrelevant. But the government wants to rent-seek....you allow them to do this, then have the gall to complain about how "unfair" the tax laws are. So either set up your situation so as to avoid them rent-seeking from you, or shut up, or change it."
by Phantompilot

Exactly.
A single person in a small, expensive home will likely use a fraction of the services what a family of six needs in a much larger, but less expensive home.
Nevertheless, the single person must pay property taxes two or three times higher than the large family in the big house, simply, because that little place is worth more.

Similarly, the owner of a light-weight, expensive sports car is taxed much higher than someone with a huge gas guzzler SUV, because he paid more for his sports car. The big SUV puts more wear and tear of the roads, but it doesn't matter to the DMV.

Socialism, by another name is what? Communism?
Certain posters here don't get it, unfortunately for all the other taxpayers.
That's a bingo.
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:50 AM
 
661 posts, read 687,360 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
That's a bingo.
What's a bingo, taxing things based on environmental impact? Property taxes based on people in household and sales taxes based on an arbitrary government decision on whether the item costs society or our infrastructure more? Does this mean higher business taxes on more impactful businesses like trucking?

Property tax should be based off of the value of the property. Not that hard people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
It would have no effect at all. The only effect likely would be a higher cost to buy overall.
We've been over this so many times but I'd still love to see your logic for house prices going up as a response to home buyers now having to pay potentially higher property taxes. Usually people want a thing less if it's taxed more.
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Old 04-12-2018, 12:14 PM
 
6,089 posts, read 4,959,099 times
Reputation: 5985
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlats View Post
What's a bingo, taxing things based on environmental impact? Property taxes based on people in household and sales taxes based on an arbitrary government decision on whether the item costs society or our infrastructure more? Does this mean higher business taxes on more impactful businesses like trucking?

Swing and a miss.
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,312 posts, read 8,492,163 times
Reputation: 16602
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlats View Post
What's a bingo, taxing things based on environmental impact? Property taxes based on people in household and sales taxes based on an arbitrary government decision on whether the item costs society or our infrastructure more? Does this mean higher business taxes on more impactful businesses like trucking?

Property tax should be based off of the value of the property. Not that hard people.



We've been over this so many times but I'd still love to see your logic for house prices going up as a response to home buyers now having to pay potentially higher property taxes. Usually people want a thing less if it's taxed more.
It is that hard. I owned a small one man business and made less than the avg income in my home town. I owned a business condo whose value doubled. I didn't plan on it, but it went up. Doubling my property tax would have been a disaster for my small business.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:36 PM
 
661 posts, read 687,360 times
Reputation: 874
Then why are all the other states that have taxes applied to the changing value of the property doing ok? Even in "high regulation, business unfriendly" states like New York? Again, it's not a complicated idea and it works this way in almost every other jurisdiction.

Not really crying too hard for old timer Bay Area property owner's finances. The current generation has it way rougher paying for the previous generation's tax advantages. "How will I afford the property tax based on my current building's value?" Well, just like any other new business owner affords it, you just don't have a tax advantage over the new guy any more. Go out of business? Shoulda bootstrapped harder

Were there businesses in Manhattan that had to close due to financial pressure from their suddenly expensive neighborhoods? Sure, that's the free market. Just because I would rather have Tony's Deli vs yet another boring Chase retail branch or whatever doesn't mean we should distort our tax code so all the old businesses can hang on. The strong will survive, like Katz's.

I do love the Prop 13 chats though, because just like Medicare discussions it's always the supposed old "free market" conservatives who angrily argue about how we need both. One is an obvious market manipulation that distorts our housing supply and other is pure socialism. But when it's your benefit you guys fight to the death to keep it. Like the Alabama senator who decries wasteful gov't spending but loves to bring home the bacon to their home district because it's different somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
Swing and a miss.
I knew I could count on you for a productive response

Last edited by TheFlats; 04-12-2018 at 03:52 PM..
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:43 PM
 
Location: So Ca
26,646 posts, read 26,593,916 times
Reputation: 24692
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgforshort View Post
Socialism, by another name is what? Communism?
Certain posters here don't get it, unfortunately for all the other taxpayers.
Scroll back and try reading about why Prop 13 was enacted.

You don't appear to know anything about the reason that taxpayers voted for it.
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,312 posts, read 8,492,163 times
Reputation: 16602
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlats View Post
Then why are all the other states that have taxes applied to the changing value of the property doing ok? Even in "high regulation, business unfriendly" states like New York? Again, it's not a complicated idea and it works this way in almost every other jurisdiction.

Not really crying too hard for old timer Bay Area property owner's finances. The current generation has it way rougher paying for the previous generation's tax advantages. "How will I afford the property tax based on my current building's value?" Well, just like any other new business owner affords it, you just don't have a tax advantage over the new guy any more. Go out of business? Shoulda bootstrapped harder

Were there businesses in Manhattan that had to close due to financial pressure from their suddenly expensive neighborhoods? Sure, that's the free market. Just because I would rather have Tony's Deli vs yet another boring Chase retail branch or whatever doesn't mean we should distort our tax code so all the old businesses can hang on. The strong will survive, like Katz's.

I do love the Prop 13 chats though, because just like Medicare discussions it's always the supposed old "free market" conservatives who angrily argue about how we need both. One is an obvious market manipulation that distorts our housing supply and other is pure socialism. But when it's your benefit you guys fight to the death to keep it. Like the Alabama senator who decries wasteful gov't spending but loves to bring home the bacon to their home district because it's different somehow.



I knew I could count on you for a productive response
Do you even live and own property in California? Do you own a business or do you work for someone? Always love it when someone talks like they know what it's like and then it turns out they are only speaking what they think they know.
Sometimes a small business can't bootstrap harder. Certain businesses have limits.
But you don't have to feel for me.
Rather than use your solution of bootstrapping harder, a stupid uninformed response because it doesn't solve everything. I went a different direction. So everything worked out fine.

I do understand your bitterness though. You are angry about Medicare and older people fighting for it since they paid into it. You are angry because there is a good chance as a younger person you are paying into it and probably won't reap the benefits.
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Old 04-12-2018, 07:08 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,307,938 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlats View Post

Property tax should be based off of the value of the property. Not that hard people.



We've been over this so many times but I'd still love to see your logic for house prices going up as a response to home buyers now having to pay potentially higher property taxes. Usually people want a thing less if it's taxed more.
When interest was higher it did not lower prices, when Mello Roos came about it did not keep house prices from rising. HOA's did not stop house prices from rising. Property taxes will not keep prices from rising, or in States with higher property taxes than CA prices would not still be rising. The only thing that lowers prices is a drop in the number of people who can afford to buy the homes on the market. Please show me any time in the last 30 or 40 years where property taxes in any State impacted the housing prices?
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Old 04-12-2018, 07:34 PM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,501,261 times
Reputation: 23226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlats View Post
What's a bingo, taxing things based on environmental impact? Property taxes based on people in household and sales taxes based on an arbitrary government decision on whether the item costs society or our infrastructure more? Does this mean higher business taxes on more impactful businesses like trucking?

Property tax should be based off of the value of the property. Not that hard people.
You have just described Prop 13 which at its core states "Value at the time of transfer"

What Prop 13 did was change the method where Property was taxed based upon the county Tax Assessor's best guess... it eliminated the highest and best use based on someone's opinion.
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