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But, the drought has changed the situation. Sure, grow all the water-thirsty crops you want when there's plenty of water.
But, when there isn't enough water for everyone, and you can't wash your car because the water-hungry crops need first dibs at water for crops that are sold overseas, then of course there is going to be a problem with that.
And honestly, how does the state's population benefit from farmers who sell their crops overseas?
I've personally seen how rice is planted and harvested in Yolo County, for instance. They use huge machines, not people. So, they don't bring in a lot of jobs, anyway.
Times change. If there isn't enough water to go around for the citizens of CA, then for-profit private businesses selling that water to Japan, in the form of almonds and rice, etc., will not go over well with Californians.
This does not mean that Californians think that all farmers are evil. Farmers used to also spray DDT from airplanes over their crops, and it was public pressure that changed that practice.
And not being able to wash your car, and having water bills of hundreds of dollars, because there isn't enough water left after farmers get their enormous share, really boils down to you subsidizing a for-profit private business. And that makes most Californians mad.
We're not all in this together like some war effort. We're being required to subsidize private agribusinesses. And I, for one, don't think that's right.
Examples? I haven't noticed farmers crying poverty. I've heard them say their livelihoods are threatened and they could go under if they can't keep their operations going. Which is true.
There's a dark side to this that many of you may not be aware of. There is-or at least was-one very prominent and very well-to do farmer here in my part of the world. I won't mention him by name. My wife was hired to work in their office doing clerical work: payables, receivables, scalehouse, etc. So she had access to info that most people don't.
This man was, on the surface, the classic poster child of the image that the farmers want you to think they are. When company was around, he was well groomed, soft spoken, erudite, went to church on Sundays, had the kids and Gerber baby grandkids. He fit the stereotype in every sense of the word.
When visitors were NOT around, he was a very different person: treated his entire work staff with massive amounts of contempt and condescension, he would yell at them, throw things across the room, required everyone else to leave the room when he was having lunch, required a doctors note if someone took a sick day, was very stingy with pay/benefits, etc. A very, very hostile, miserly, and twisted man. He was every bit the poster child for Jeckyll-and-Hyde bi-polar lunatic as he was the "God fearing red-white-and-blue farmer" he appeared to be to the outside world.
He had done very well for himself. He had three cattle ranches in the area, several thousand acres of land being used for various crops (I don't recall if he did this too or merely subbed the land out), had two mansions in town, one in Texas, and another on the Central Coast. He was known for boasting about his collection of classic and exotic cars, which alone was worth several million dollars.
In the three or so years she worked for him, he only gave out raises twice: one for fifty cents an hour and another for a dollar. Meanwhile she would tell me about the massive slush fund and tax shelter operations he had going (i.e. using the paper gains from one entity to subsidize another).
When the price of feedstock when through the roof at the same time the prices for milk crashed, he held onto it for a bit. On paper, it did indeed look like he was flooding with red ink. He eventually sold the dairies and laid off the entire staff that was not family and filed for BK. At least, the dairy ranches did.
He joined numerous press rallies and begged for the public to gin up support because "he went under".
My point to all of this is even though he concocted a masterpiece show of "the plight of the American farmer", the reality was he and any hundred other people of his choosing can be sitting in fat city for the next thousand years. He still held onto his land. All of his homes. His car collection. And God only knows what else he had squirreled away.
The man was not poor by any stretch of the imagination. He got to where he did by cheating and gaming the system and treating other people like trash. All while putting out a public image and persona as a "kind, honest, God fearing hard working farmer". There is a difference between being shrewd and wise and then being a miser.
And I think this is where a lot of my disdain for them comes from. Even if everything they did was legal in the literal academic sense, it's obvious that they acted in bad faith to the spirit and intent of business. And then have the nerve to go around pleading how hard they have it. If he was one, I have no reason to think there aren't plenty of others like him out there. I'm seeing many telltale signs evidence of it. And that's why I just can't feel sorry for them.
If you imagine the guy you see standing on the corner begging for loose change and then at the end of the day, drives home in his Lexus, you'll be looking through the same prism as I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreSnowForMe
I see your point. But as far as boycotting CA agribusiness/farmers, that could be effective if they weren't exporting most of their crops.
And this is where the animosity comes into play, at least as far as the drought is concerned, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
I just don't think it is fair to single out farmers as the bad guys...
-Except...when they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Sacramento has been saying for California to be strong... we need to export... seems California farmers have excelled in creating new markets... domestic and overseas.
It's no secret that the Beijing is the one really calling the shots. Not Sacramento or DC. But that's another discussion for another day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
it was the fear of bad press
-Which I openly admit is what's driving my bulldog grip on this issue. There is so much blatant hypocrisy, corruption, and double standards in all of this that I want to do my part to expose this and these people for who they really are. Even if it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, at least I know I've done my part. Fair is fair and right is right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreSnowForMe
But, the drought has changed the situation. Sure, grow all the water-thirsty crops you want when there's plenty of water.
But, when there isn't enough water for everyone, and you can't wash your car because the water-hungry crops need first dibs at water for crops that are sold overseas, then of course there is going to be a problem with that.
And honestly, how does the state's population benefit from farmers who sell their crops overseas?
I've personally seen how rice is planted and harvested in Yolo County, for instance. They use huge machines, not people. So, they don't bring in a lot of jobs, anyway.
Times change. If there isn't enough water to go around for the citizens of CA, then for-profit private businesses selling that water to Japan, in the form of almonds and rice, etc., will not go over well with Californians.
This does not mean that Californians think that all farmers are evil. Farmers used to also spray DDT from airplanes over their crops, and it was public pressure that changed that practice.
And not being able to wash your car, and having water bills of hundreds of dollars, because there isn't enough water left after farmers get their enormous share, really boils down to you subsidizing a for-profit private business. And that makes most Californians mad.
We're not all in this together like some war effort. We're being required to subsidize private agribusinesses. And I, for one, don't think that's right.
This, this, this, and this. You nailed it. I wish I could give you a medal. That is exactly what this is about. Image and perception. You have almost an entire industry of people who adamantly profess their opposition to "big government", "excessive regulation", and the like. but man, how quickly they change their tune and tenor once those dividends, profits, and subsidies start rolling in.
And it was those very same "unfair government laws" that allowed our Mister Wonderful ex employer of my wife to shaft countless people out of millions of dollars owed, while he walked away living the life of Riley.
Yet he had the stones to stand there and complain about how much he was "struggling".
The farmers, ranchers and growers I know are in Northern California and for the most part all run small operations in the hundreds of acres typically and yes... tree crops, grapes and cattle seem to be predominant... I don't drink wine... yet I would never say the wine business should just shut down... 'm allergic to certain nuts and would never say those that grow them should stop.
Maybe I'm simply naive... but none of the water they use is tap water... they simply can't for two reasons: tap water would bankrupt them and tap water has chemicals... even cold water from wells is a problem for some crops... my grape growing friends say ambient pond water is the best... cold water slows growth or shocks plants.
The rice farmers and others sure keep the ag dealers in business... my John Deere tractor was down two years ago and just my luck... it was during harvest time... my options were wait many weeks or fix it myself...
All the Dealers and Service facilities in the valley ONLY exist to serve AG... lots of jobs for locals... then there are my trucking friends that make the bulk of their money during harvest season... then the Port of Oakland cultivates exports to offset imports... plus the canneries employ a lot of folks seasonally...
The Port employs people at good wages... the lines of trucks are amazing... again all local jobs and money directly into the local economy...
AG isn't new... the little towns of Port Costa and Martinez were world ranked in terms of AG exports going way back... this has shift with larger ships to Oakland and Stockton.
Maybe the politics are such that California has no room for AG... the University at Davis which is world renowned for it's AG program will slowly fade away as AG diminishes...
As to bucket washing my vehicle with zero runoff once a month... why should this be anyone's concern when my low water usage is exemplary...
I could counter and say I work and live where I do so I have no commute and could easily say commuters need to be punished because commuters consume our limited resources, clog the roads and foul the air... simply not being good citizens.
Or clogging the roads just to see football, baseball, basketball should stay home... we don't need stadiums that encourage driving and for what... to see individuals paid millions of dollars to hit a ball, throw a ball or catch a ball... that charter planes 40 or 50 times a year just so they can do the same thing somewhere else???
What about the millions spent of fireworks that terrorize animals, start fires, mame people and foul the air?
Water rights, property rights, civil rights, human rights... they are all rights under the rule of law...
Many don't know there is also the right to farm and in many places codified by law...
Taking away or curtailing someone's rights is very serious and it is a crime even when done by the government if due process isn't followed...
Some would argue the flow of fresh water to the sea is the biggest waste of water ever...
With planning... the same water can be reused over and over again... snow pack, lakes and reservoirs, hydro electricity generation, agriculture, recreation, fire suppression, etc...
The fact of the matter is if every household used water as efficiently and sparingly as my household and that of my neighbors... the water districts would go under and they would be desperate to find new markets to sell product...
The electric utilities are already seeing this as electricity usage drops through efficiency and alternative generation such as solar.
If it was really about water it would be one thing... we know there are many more interests at play besides water... one only need to look at the laws concerning Greywater use in California for proof.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 08-02-2015 at 08:53 AM..
There's a dark side to this that many of you may not be aware of. There is-or at least was-one very prominent and very well-to do farmer here in my part of the world. I won't mention him by name. My wife was hired to work in their office doing clerical work: payables, receivables, scalehouse, etc. So she had access to info that most people don't.
This man was, on the surface, the classic poster child of the image that the farmers want you to think they are. When company was around, he was well groomed, soft spoken, erudite, went to church on Sundays, had the kids and Gerber baby grandkids. He fit the stereotype in every sense of the word.
When visitors were NOT around, he was a very different person: treated his entire work staff with massive amounts of contempt and condescension, he would yell at them, throw things across the room, required everyone else to leave the room when he was having lunch, required a doctors note if someone took a sick day, was very stingy with pay/benefits, etc. A very, very hostile, miserly, and twisted man. He was every bit the poster child for Jeckyll-and-Hyde bi-polar lunatic as he was the "God fearing red-white-and-blue farmer" he appeared to be to the outside world.
He had done very well for himself. He had three cattle ranches in the area, several thousand acres of land being used for various crops (I don't recall if he did this too or merely subbed the land out), had two mansions in town, one in Texas, and another on the Central Coast. He was known for boasting about his collection of classic and exotic cars, which alone was worth several million dollars.
In the three or so years she worked for him, he only gave out raises twice: one for fifty cents an hour and another for a dollar. Meanwhile she would tell me about the massive slush fund and tax shelter operations he had going (i.e. using the paper gains from one entity to subsidize another).
When the price of feedstock when through the roof at the same time the prices for milk crashed, he held onto it for a bit. On paper, it did indeed look like he was flooding with red ink. He eventually sold the dairies and laid off the entire staff that was not family and filed for BK. At least, the dairy ranches did.
He joined numerous press rallies and begged for the public to gin up support because "he went under".
My point to all of this is even though he concocted a masterpiece show of "the plight of the American farmer", the reality was he and any hundred other people of his choosing can be sitting in fat city for the next thousand years. He still held onto his land. All of his homes. His car collection. And God only knows what else he had squirreled away.
The man was not poor by any stretch of the imagination. He got to where he did by cheating and gaming the system and treating other people like trash. All while putting out a public image and persona as a "kind, honest, God fearing hard working farmer". There is a difference between being shrewd and wise and then being a miser.
And I think this is where a lot of my disdain for them comes from. Even if everything they did was legal in the literal academic sense, it's obvious that they acted in bad faith to the spirit and intent of business. And then have the nerve to go around pleading how hard they have it. If he was one, I have no reason to think there aren't plenty of others like him out there. I'm seeing many telltale signs evidence of it. And that's why I just can't feel sorry for them.
If you imagine the guy you see standing on the corner begging for loose change and then at the end of the day, drives home in his Lexus, you'll be looking through the same prism as I.
-Except...when they are.
It's no secret that the Beijing is the one really calling the shots. Not Sacramento or DC. But that's another discussion for another day.
-Which I openly admit is what's driving my bulldog grip on this issue. There is so much blatant hypocrisy, corruption, and double standards in all of this that I want to do my part to expose this and these people for who they really are. Even if it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, at least I know I've done my part. Fair is fair and right is right.
This, this, this, and this. You nailed it. I wish I could give you a medal. That is exactly what this is about. Image and perception. You have almost an entire industry of people who adamantly profess their opposition to "big government", "excessive regulation", and the like. but man, how quickly they change their tune and tenor once those dividends, profits, and subsidies start rolling in.
And it was those very same "unfair government laws" that allowed our Mister Wonderful ex employer of my wife to shaft countless people out of millions of dollars owed, while he walked away living the life of Riley.
Yet he had the stones to stand there and complain about how much he was "struggling".
Sounds like some of the Doctors I have worked for... one public persona and completely different behind the scenes... things like say they don't seen new patients when they really mean medi-cal patients...
Making conditions such that there is a constant staff turnover and complaining quality people don't exist... never giving raises or cost of living and then prides herself that people keep working...
Manipulating the system or gaming to allocate care based on what insurance you have...
Then again, I worked a car Dealership that ran very much the same way and my friend worked in the restaurant business and was treated very much the same way...
I think I see a pattern here? maybe they are all bipolar which could mean they are a protected class due to a disability?
At one time.. America's strength was that just about anyone could start a business and sink or swim based on their own merits... sadly, this entrepreneurial spirit is fading fading and if it wasn't for immigrants... would be all but gone.
Maybe I'm simply naive... but none of the water they use is tap water... they simply can't for two reasons: tap water would bankrupt them and tap water has chemicals... even cold water from wells is a problem for some crops... my grape growing friends say ambient pond water is the best... cold water slows growth or shocks plants.
You know I really respect you, but this argument doesn't hold water, so to speak. This water can be turned into tap water. This water could be used to water gardens, wash cars, etc., etc., etc.
Saying the water they are using is okay because it's not tap water is honestly, a really insulting argument. People are just not that gullible, surely.
I don't in principle begrudge your friends the water to water their grapes, etc. But, they should pay the price for needing all that water - not the residents of California who are not profiting from their use of that water.
Maybe they have water rights, but maybe it's time to tax them on their use of it. You and I should not have to pay their water bills.
CD user Fiddlehead summed it up brilliantly. So much that I have to use it here.
"Playing farmers as the victims is like saying the guy who ate 11 1/2 slices of a 12 slice pie is a victim because he cannot get to eat the last half slice. No one is against agriculture, [they are just frustrated because] they just can't get the last drop, last acre, and screw [over] future generations".
Right. Ag business has a huge presence in Sacramento with lots of expensive lobbyists and lawyers. Of course, their first effort will be to try and get the population to absorb the cost of water initially, during this drought. And it's good strategy.
It's up to the population to fight back. Let Sacramento know that we're not okay with this initial "solution," which puts the cost of the drought on the residents by getting residents to not only cut back severely on their use, but to also pay through the nose for the water they get - including a surcharge if they cut back too far!
Californians, however, are not pushovers. We even oust governors here. We change laws regarding property taxes, regardless of how utilities and local governments and the state flap their arms in horror over what that might mean for the economy, yatta yatta.
So, they made the first "bet," and now it's our turn to "call" and "raise them one," if I have my poker terms correct :-)
Any lobbyists out there? How about writing a law that proposes a new tax on agriculture use of water? Start by seeing if it's legal. They may have the right to use the water, but we may have the right to tax it. Let's find out, shall we?
I'm glad I don't farm... between pests and invasive species and constraints on what to plant and when or if at all...
In order to produce... the plants must thrive... not enough water and the best that can be hoped for tree crops is survival... for other crops... they wither and die.
I guess the real question is who owns the water... do legal rights mean anything and/or are we a nation of laws?
Many parts of AG country have dams and reservoirs that were totally built with private funds going back before the turn of the century... often called irrigation districts... some were originally AG or mining as NID and now supply domestic water... and users must determine if or how to treat.
My understanding is the government can at anytime attempt to make the case for eminent domain... and this is how it is done... if successful, the private property or right will be extinguished in favor of the government and if necessary, the courts will be the final arbiter as to compensation...
Story last week about California rice farmers agreeing to forgo planting and they were fine with it... because they sold their water rights/water. Some even said it is much easier to sell because it takes nature out of the equation... in other words selling is certain and farming isn't.
I have no problem with this... even if done via eminent domain through the courts... this is our system.
Echo Lake in Tahoe is one small example of a private dam/water storage put in place long before I was born... the lake level is controlled by those that own the dam and sometimes boat accessible cabins are not because the water level is too low...
Water reservoirs and dams are already taxed if private... they have to be... it will be a sad day when rain from the sky is taxed...
The State already controls much of the water and farmers pay fees... and many were notified there is no water for sale this year... again not a problem.
I really hope we are not heading in the direction of nationalizing all water...
The title of this thread is waste... and waste is already codified and offenders cited.
Maybe law enforcement needs to step up...
The Mall shopping center near me had water running an entire weekend... some copper thieves cut pipes and backflows to sell for scarp... the amount of water running down the street was significant and it continued all weekend... I spent about 2 hours trying to find a solution...
San Leandro Police said they had no authority to act... East Bay Municipal Water District said the break was on private property and they had no authority to act and they could be sued if they turned off water to the mall and stores were forced to close because of this...
I called the property owner and of course no one was available... called the emergency numbers and left numerous messages and also e-mailed... it was the weekend.
Turns out the woman who had call that weekend went into early labor and was giving birth... I did hear from the office 8:30 Monday morning and I was given two private cell numbers should something like this were to happen again... I have no connection except as a concerned passerby...
So many people called it impacted the San Leandro Police 911... so plenty of us chose to get involved... it's just those in government and quasi government as is EBMUD simply for whatever reason could not help.
A huge diversion of public and private resources for $10 worth of scrap metal...
Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing... water pipe or water itself and we have plenty of laws to address this.
I'm glad I don't farm... between pests and invasive species and constraints on what to plant and when or if at all...
In order to produce... the plants must thrive... not enough water and the best that can be hoped for tree crops is survival... for other crops... they wither and die.
I guess the real question is who owns the water... do legal rights mean anything and/or are we a nation of laws?
Many parts of AG country have dams and reservoirs that were totally built with private funds going back before the turn of the century... often called irrigation districts... some were originally AG or mining as NID and now supply domestic water... and users must determine if or how to treat.
My understanding is the government can at anytime attempt to make the case for eminent domain... and this is how it is done... if successful, the private property or right will be extinguished in favor of the government and if necessary, the courts will be the final arbiter as to compensation...
Story last week about California rice farmers agreeing to forgo planting and they were fine with it... because they sold their water rights/water. Some even said it is much easier to sell because it takes nature out of the equation... in other words selling is certain and farming isn't.
I have no problem with this... even if done via eminent domain through the courts... this is our system.
Echo Lake in Tahoe is one small example of a private dam/water storage put in place long before I was born... the lake level is controlled by those that own the dam and sometimes boat accessible cabins are not because the water level is too low...
Water reservoirs and dams are already taxed if private... they have to be... it will be a sad day when rain from the sky is taxed...
The State already controls much of the water and farmers pay fees... and many were notified there is no water for sale this year... again not a problem.
I really hope we are not heading in the direction of nationalizing all water...
The title of this thread is waste... and waste is already codified and offenders cited.
Maybe law enforcement needs to step up...
The Mall shopping center near me had water running an entire weekend... some copper thieves cut pipes and backflows to sell for scarp... the amount of water running down the street was significant and it continued all weekend... I spent about 2 hours trying to find a solution...
San Leandro Police said they had no authority to act... East Bay Municipal Water District said the break was on private property and they had no authority to act and they could be sued if they turned off water to the mall and stores were forced to close because of this...
I called the property owner and of course no one was available... called the emergency numbers and left numerous messages and also e-mailed... it was the weekend.
Turns out the woman who had call that weekend went into early labor and was giving birth... I did hear from the office 8:30 Monday morning and I was given two private cell numbers should something like this were to happen again... I have no connection except as a concerned passerby...
So many people called it impacted the San Leandro Police 911... so plenty of us chose to get involved... it's just those in government and quasi government as is EBMUD simply for whatever reason could not help.
A huge diversion of public and private resources for $10 worth of scrap metal...
Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing... water pipe or water itself and we have plenty of laws to address this.
Must have been a Landscape only backflow that was cut or the shops in the mall would not have had water at all. That's a easy fix as all back flows have gate valves on either side that can be turned off.
I've shut off valves and backflows many times over the years. Whenever I see a broken sprinkler system leaking water or a stuck valve that has obviously been running for hours or days.
I never call anyone either. It's amazing how fast people respond when water gets shut off.
The pipe looked like someone used a hacksaw and only got about a third of the way thorough... guess it was 2" so it very well could have been for irrigation only.
Not far away, I got a call around midnight from a floor nurse saying the toilet didn't flush... thinking there are plenty of other toilets why are you bothering me... then said said none of the toilets on the floor worked.
Sure enough... as I drove up.. there was a geyser shooting 30' in the air... and the entire wing had no water... had a cage installed the same day...
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