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Old 03-23-2016, 07:36 PM
 
17,266 posts, read 11,117,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Yes. Very good. Survey a number of surveys. Average them out. See whether California is "far left any way you slice it". It's Blue. Not Midnight Blue.
Well, like I said. It won't matter what sources I post, it will be equivalent of beating a dead horse because no matter what sources I give you, you'll refute it. I found at least half a dozen sources saying CA is one of the most liberal states in just 2 minutes, so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:52 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,592 posts, read 16,119,314 times
Reputation: 19663
Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
Well, like I said. It won't matter what sources I post, it will be equivalent of beating a dead horse because no matter what sources I give you, you'll refute it. I found at least half a dozen sources saying CA is one of the most liberal states in just 2 minutes, so I'll leave it at that.
Lol. I didn't say it isn't liberal. I stated clearly, twice, that it definitely is. I point out your hyperbole calling it "far left". And the Gallup poll I just cited two posts back pretty much tells that story lock, stock, and barrel.

Like I said also, that isn't a horse you're beating.
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Old 03-23-2016, 08:14 PM
 
17,266 posts, read 11,117,260 times
Reputation: 40556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Lol. I didn't say it isn't liberal. I stated clearly, twice, that it definitely is. I point out your hyperbole calling it "far left". And the Gallup poll I just cited two posts back pretty much tells that story lock, stock, and barrel.

Like I said also, that isn't a horse you're beating.
The difference between your source and mine is that your source is a gallop poll. People can call themselves conservative but that doesn't mean they are. I know you'll disagree and that's fine, but to many people the word "liberal" has a more negative connotation than the word "conservative". Therefore, more people tend to call themselves conservative when asked.
The source I posted has nothing to do with how people feel about themselves. It's reflects actual voting records regarding how many liberal vs conservative representatives a state has, how many Presidents of either party the people of the state has elected and how many senators of either party were elected. By that standard CA is #4 in the country which in my opinion makes it far left when you consider there are another 46 states ahead of it that vote more moderate or conservative.
People in CA have called themselves conservative for decades but their voting records say otherwise. CA was a conservative state at one time a few decades ago and has become more liberal with each year. In another decade it may even be in the top 1 or 2 on the list. That's fine by the way and something to be proud of if you're liberal. If CA were #4 in it's conservative voting record, I wouldn't feel the need to disagree. I'd be rather proud of it.
This isn't by the way, a rant about which is better conservative or liberal, I'm just making a point regarding the original question of this thread.
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Old 03-23-2016, 08:45 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,592 posts, read 16,119,314 times
Reputation: 19663
Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
The difference between your source and mine is that your source is a gallop poll. People can call themselves conservative but that doesn't mean they are. I know you'll disagree and that's fine, but to many people the word "liberal" has a more negative connotation than the word "conservative". Therefore, more people tend to call themselves conservative when asked.
The source I posted has nothing to do with how people feel about themselves. It's reflects actual voting records regarding how many liberal vs conservative representatives a state has, how many Presidents of either party the people of the state has elected and how many senators of either party were elected. By that standard CA is #4 in the country which in my opinion makes it far left when you consider there are another 46 states ahead of it that vote more moderate or conservative.
People in CA have called themselves conservative for decades but their voting records say otherwise. CA was a conservative state at one time a few decades ago and has become more liberal with each year. In another decade it may even be in the top 1 or 2 on the list. That's fine by the way and something to be proud of if you're liberal. If CA were #4 in it's conservative voting record, I wouldn't feel the need to disagree. I'd be rather proud of it.
This isn't by the way, a rant about which is better conservative or liberal, I'm just making a point regarding the original question of this thread.
I disagree that the term "liberal" has any more negative connotation to people than does "conservative".

Now, your reasoning - with regard to voting records and representatives - may seem reasonable, at face value. But it is flawed. In several ways. First up, review and averaging time frames need to be considered. For example, Democrat and Republican roles as conservative / liberal have been different in past eras and even to the point of reversing themselves altogether. Regional differences also come into play as with the old southern democrat traditions. But even if you limit your review to recent decades, you can't rely on mere party affiliation. A rather glaring contemporary example would be President Obama, whose administration has been barely liberal if at all on most issues and actions taken. Conversely, Schwartzenegger was barely what could pass for a conservative. Then there is the factor of what the quality of opposition was in various contests, and the nature of the local issues of importance to an electorate. The options and choices in elections aren't black and white. Free trade is a perfect example. To some of each persuasion, liberal and conservative, it is a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it affects their livelihood.

And, finally for this response, the reality of America is that it is becoming intensely more urban and more diverse every year. And those two factors always support a shift to more liberalism. This dilutes any claim to "far" left. California isn't particularly "far" left. Not much of America is. Vermont does come to mind, though! )
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:19 AM
 
Location: In the reddest part of the bluest state
5,751 posts, read 2,758,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
It all depends on which source you wish to use.

The 5 most liberal states | TheHill. Here it's not only in the top 10, it's #4.
And MN is number 2. Told you so.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:25 AM
 
17,266 posts, read 11,117,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCbaxter View Post
And MN is number 2. Told you so.
Congratulations!!!
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:49 AM
 
17,266 posts, read 11,117,260 times
Reputation: 40556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
I disagree that the term "liberal" has any more negative connotation to people than does "conservative".

Now, your reasoning - with regard to voting records and representatives - may seem reasonable, at face value. But it is flawed. In several ways. First up, review and averaging time frames need to be considered. For example, Democrat and Republican roles as conservative / liberal have been different in past eras and even to the point of reversing themselves altogether. Regional differences also come into play as with the old southern democrat traditions. But even if you limit your review to recent decades, you can't rely on mere party affiliation. A rather glaring contemporary example would be President Obama, whose administration has been barely liberal if at all on most issues and actions taken. Conversely, Schwartzenegger was barely what could pass for a conservative. Then there is the factor of what the quality of opposition was in various contests, and the nature of the local issues of importance to an electorate. The options and choices in elections aren't black and white. Free trade is a perfect example. To some of each persuasion, liberal and conservative, it is a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it affects their livelihood.

And, finally for this response, the reality of America is that it is becoming intensely more urban and more diverse every year. And those two factors always support a shift to more liberalism. This dilutes any claim to "far" left. California isn't particularly "far" left. Not much of America is. Vermont does come to mind, though! )
The fact that you think President Obama has been barely liberal or at all says alot. Regardless, of course you are going to refute every source I post which is what I expected you to do. It doesn't change the fact that out of 50 states, CA ranks 46 in how liberal it's population votes for it's representatives. You can't change the facts as much as you would like to.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Sylmar, a part of Los Angeles
8,259 posts, read 6,319,504 times
Reputation: 17286
Telemutt doesn't think California is liberal, Good Grief.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
807 posts, read 892,548 times
Reputation: 1391
Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
The fact that you think President Obama has been barely liberal or at all says alot. Regardless, of course you are going to refute every source I post which is what I expected you to do. It doesn't change the fact that out of 50 states, CA ranks 46 in how liberal it's population votes for it's representatives. You can't change the facts as much as you would like to.
Hey, anyone else can do that too: "The fact that you think President Obama is very liberal or at all says a lot."

While facts don't change, one can certainly change the perspective in which those facts are presented. When a concerted effort to pull the tone of the entire country farther right has succeeded, it is absolutely possible that far left in America today equates to far right in an America of yesterday.

The U.S. is a dynamic and frequently moving nation, if we weren't we would've stagnated into inconsequence decades ago. Hence the point that while California is liberal compared to the rest of the nation today, it is hardly super-liberal. Some people just need that straw man to beat because they otherwise couldn't stay united for a common cause. Distinguishing between shades of gray is inconvenient to that end.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Oroville, California
3,477 posts, read 6,470,512 times
Reputation: 6789
No. California is as liberal as Oklahoma is conservative. Its a valid assessment. I wouldn't want to live in any state that is that unbalanced one way or the other... but unfortunately I do.
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