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If it "should be" - it would be. And it ain't. While you two are patting each other on your respective backs and judging the world inferior to you, human nature keeps defying your ideology.
Human nature is why I don't want the current plutocracy you keep defending as being in my best interest. Do you ever wonder why that 5 of the 6 wealthiest counties in America surround Washington, D.C.?
Why you think personal choice and limited government is a bad idea. For some reason you think libertarianism means almost no government, when it really means is a government the size it was 40 years ago.
You keep saying human nature prevents libertarianism from working; human nature is exactly why libertarianism is needed. If everyone is looking out for themselves all the time then the best idea would be to reduce the amount of power someone has over another by as much as possible.
You remind me of this quote from C.S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.
Has appeal to personal responsibility been tried? Lol. Of course it's been tried throughout history by innumerable forms. In spite of religion's implorations to do good under alternative threats of eternal damnation, sinners abound. In spite of various democracies, tyrants emerge and gain followings. In spite of regulations businessmen find ways to cheat the system. In spite of laws people steal. You think by limiting laws and regulations those truths will lessen? Ha! There is nothing, in all human history that does not fall to opportunism - except in intimately small social units. You are fighting science. You lose.
This isn't a question of what I like, versus what you admire theoretically. I don't like any of the impositions of government any more than you do. I am simply a scientifically, logically bound realist.
"Freedom" is a powerful desire. Primal. If it could work - it would have by now. Any honest study of anthropology and human history demonstrates, unarguably, that humanity continues to act as C.S. Lewis' "infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals". Nothing more. Implement your freedoms and you would be trampled by a million mini-Trumps.
Human nature is why I don't want the current plutocracy you keep defending as being in my best interest. Do you ever wonder why that 5 of the 6 wealthiest counties in America surround Washington, D.C.?
No, I don't wonder. Why would I? It's obvious. Doesn't change the truth of my observations in the slightest.
Do you think you can change human nature through ideological demands? It's been tried. It doesn't work. Reality works. Learn to live a love of life in spite of its challenges.
No, I don't wonder. Why would I? It's obvious. Doesn't change the truth of my observations in the slightest.
Do you think you can change human nature through ideological demands? It's been tried. It doesn't work. Reality works. Learn to live a love of life in spite of its challenges.
I'm not trying to change human nature, I'm just removing the power given from a few individuals you have that same human nature and decentralizing it so that it does the least amount of damage.
Every time you say Liberty doesn't work you site a form a tyranny that has caused death and destruction based on the 'common good' you proclaim as needed. History isn't an example of Liberty not working, history is an example of tyrants ruling subjects. This country was founded on the ideal of consent of the governed and that the government only exists because the people allow it to exist, which was never done before. Unfortunately with the centralizing of power in DC and with one person, the president and his executive branch we are more like the tyrants of old than the Representitive republic of 200 plus years ago.
It was also arguably the deadliest for working people.
No thank you.
Many of our labor laws were written in blood.
We are well beyond those types of labor laws.
Unfortunately, count me among those who think that's optimistic. We should be beyond it but we certainly aren't. Take the various coal-related incidents in West Virginia, where the greater irony is that with coal being as politically important to the locals and to the whole state itself, one would've assumed that in an ideal world that the coal industry would be the safest out of all the industries out there. This example could also double as an example where local governments have failed to protect its citizens.
I believe you have stated support for libertarianism as a means of staving off human nature's tendency to tyranny, particularly in governments. That same human nature is running businesses.
I generally have a positive view of libertarian ideals BUT I recognize that it requires that participants have a strong sense of responsibility. Those responsibilities only increase as you add more people into the mix, unless one wants to argue that increasing a supply of people decreases their individual value in some way at the same time.
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Originally Posted by NewbieHere
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Originally Posted by PCALMike
Its interesting that President Taft, a Republican, believed 2 or 3 months vacation should be required by law. That was in 1910.
Why bring back a dead president? 1910 was a long time ago and obviously nobody in USA thought it was a good idea.
I think that would be just to show that even in the middle of the American Industrial Revolution, a time known for worker abuses because the ethics and culture of the past did not adapt appropriately to the then-new realities, there were Americans of power who could still arrive at that kind of conclusion about the importance of vacation time for workers.
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Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220
You can't argue with a libertardian, they are "always right" lol I hate libertardians, they are mainly arrogant, entitled middle class white guys from the suburbs
Woah there. Like any other ideology, the range of subscribers will span from the zealots down to more moderate thinkers. While it is true that there are a lot of self-declared libertarians who just use the catchwords "liberty" and "freedom" to try to justify bad behavior, there are plenty of others who simply recognize that there are scenarios where a libertarian approach could provide consistently better outcomes and think that libertarianism is the right tool. Lumping everyone into "libertardian" is taking the low road, not unlike when you can totally tell that someone is using the word "liberal" as a substitute word for insults like "dummy" or "idiot" and think they are clever for it.
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Originally Posted by Tulemutt
I'm sure, yes, that "others agree with you", too. Just as there are others who agree with me. And none of that changes the truth of the observations I have been making about the nature of Libertarianism in general, nor how it relates to this topic. Libertarianism requires broad individual responsibility and absolutely honest participation by an entire society. Very nice fantasy. Completely out of the realm of human nature when people live in large complex societies.
Hence, it is a perfectly appropriate thing for government to shape and foster a critically healthy policy of mandating vacation time. It is good for individuals to recharge themselves and refresh personal perspectives away from work obsessions. It is good for businesses that workers do this as well. This isn't an attack on business. It is a benefit for all.
And California is a perfect place to start as a leader in progressive social movements.
"Fantasy" is harsh but I can't disagree that today's realities make your outlook a better match than mine. I think society can evolve into something like that. Just probably not in our lifetimes without some serious picking and choosing of the members for a grand experiment. Just don't exclusively select Alphas though, they'll likely wipe each other out.
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Originally Posted by shooting4life
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Originally Posted by Tulemutt
No, I don't wonder. Why would I? It's obvious. Doesn't change the truth of my observations in the slightest.
Do you think you can change human nature through ideological demands? It's been tried. It doesn't work. Reality works. Learn to live a love of life in spite of its challenges.
I'm not trying to change human nature, I'm just removing the power given from a few individuals you have that same human nature and decentralizing it so that it does the least amount of damage.
Every time you say Liberty doesn't work you site a form a tyranny that has caused death and destruction based on the 'common good' you proclaim as needed. History isn't an example of Liberty not working, history is an example of tyrants ruling subjects. This country was founded on the ideal of consent of the governed and that the government only exists because the people allow it to exist, which was never done before. Unfortunately with the centralizing of power in DC and with one person, the president and his executive branch we are more like the tyrants of old than the Representitive republic of 200 plus years ago.
If you decentralize power into the hands of multiple incompetent and/or irresponsible individuals, all we've changed is that there is more chaos in the field and there's no guarantee that the overall damage becomes even less. What's more, given human nature's tendency to disperse responsibility through numbers, we have a situation where nobody's at fault for screwing things up because, hey, everyone else did it the same way! With a tyrant, we know who's at fault and who to string up, at least. lol..?
I'll point out that a lot of regulations tend to show up after people discover a need for it. Opinions on that need may vary but something has happened to trigger the demand. All we need to do is reasonably sort out whether there really is a need or not and then calculate the economic realities, a cakewalk. Yes, I'm kidding about the ease of doing this.
I'm not trying to change human nature, I'm just removing the power given from a few individuals you have that same human nature and decentralizing it so that it does the least amount of damage.
Every time you say Liberty doesn't work you site a form a tyranny that has caused death and destruction based on the 'common good' you proclaim as needed. History isn't an example of Liberty not working, history is an example of tyrants ruling subjects. This country was founded on the ideal of consent of the governed and that the government only exists because the people allow it to exist, which was never done before. Unfortunately with the centralizing of power in DC and with one person, the president and his executive branch we are more like the tyrants of old than the Representitive republic of 200 plus years ago.
Sorry. Your review of history is not correct. America was not the first attempt at representative government. Don't know how you can say that. Regardless, America today is 320 million people in a very different world of 7.5 billion. 200 years ago won't work today. And, obviously, it has come to be what it is in spite of being structured as you believe a superior system to all others. You are suggesting that the electorate is capable of grand, individual responsibility and cooperation - when right in your face is grossly divisive, rabidly fanatical, foaming-at-the-mouth separation of Americans who are willing to believe in a Donald J. Trump, alternatively an Hillary R. Clinton, alternatively a Bernie Sanders, or a Jill Stein, or a Gary Johnson. This rabid state of True Believer-ship is proof you can't get the cooperation Libertarianism requires. These divergent interests will tear at each other and everything you hold dear if you set them free. To say nothing of what the military-industrial-corporate world would do to us all if unleashed.
Intelligence, risk behavior and even work rate is by and large not something people really choose, but they are inherited traits. The libertarian system of wild west capitalism by and large rewards sociopaths. Sociopaths dont choose to become sociopaths. They are born that way.
Whats so great about such a system I fail to see.
Mandating two weeks paid vacation is an extension of labor rights which we see in every other civilized country on earth. Californians are some of the most worked to death people in the developed world with hardly any vacation at all compared to other countries. Its time to recognize the benefits of a better work-life balance IMO, and not just grovel the big money donor class that controls so much. One way to do it would be to join www.represent.us to get big money out of politics, because I am sure if we had elected representantives that were beholden to no one but the people, it would be implemented.
People in California get burned out like crazy, yet most people cant take any vacation time either because they dont get it from their employer or are pressured to stay on the job to stay "loyal".
California is the 6th largest economy in the world, and in all the other economies ahead of CA all workers get guaranteed paid leave.
Less government, not more.
And if you haven't figured out a way to get a paid vacation, either by improving your skills to get a better job, or negotiating to get a vacation, you really don't deserve one.
Sorry. Your review of history is not correct. America was not the first attempt at representative government. Don't know how you can say that. Regardless, America today is 320 million people in a very different world of 7.5 billion. 200 years ago won't work today. And, obviously, it has come to be what it is in spite of being structured as you believe a superior system to all others. You are suggesting that the electorate is capable of grand, individual responsibility and cooperation - when right in your face is grossly divisive, rabidly fanatical, foaming-at-the-mouth separation of Americans who are willing to believe in a Donald J. Trump, alternatively an Hillary R. Clinton, alternatively a Bernie Sanders, or a Jill Stein, or a Gary Johnson. This rabid state of True Believer-ship is proof you can't get the cooperation Libertarianism requires. These divergent interests will tear at each other and everything you hold dear if you set them free. To say nothing of what the military-industrial-corporate world would do to us all if unleashed.
Yet all those people you complain about as being bad for this country were all brought to us by the current system of limited Representitive government centralized in DC. You some how believe that man is inherently evil and self serving but once elected to a position of power over 400k to 350 million people they some how change and become a wise and benevolent ruler and cease to look out for their own self interest but now watch over the interest of others.
The military industrial complex would not exist if not for the large centralized government. The king like authority of the president over the executive branch would not exists if we had a decentralized government.
Chief Justice Marshall said that the power to tax is the power to destroy, in modern America it is not only the power to tax but also the power to regulate is the power to destroy. The executive branch already exceeds its constitutional mandate via executive order and uses th federal government to punish those with differing political opinion, spies on the press and refuses to turn over records to the people and you want that authority magnified instead of reduced.
They really cant and research shows it. 5 weeks paid vacation for workers in California is so rare its unheard of. Workers dont have the leverage to do it, simple as that, unlike in developed countries. The overwhelming majority support requiring business to provide paid vacation time.
Why do you support overtime regulations and child labor regulations on business?
Why are liberals so obsessed with what everybody else is doing? It's none of their business. Salaries, vacations, perks, working conditions, taxes - it's NONE of their business. It's only the business of the 2 parties involved.
As for the "developed country" utopia you wish to emulate - they pay HUGE amounts of taxes. Do you want to be like them in that regards also?
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I hate libertardians, they are mainly arrogant, entitled middle class white guys from the suburbs
