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View Poll Results: Would you support a secession?
Absolutely. 88 40.37%
I would vote against it, but would stay in California regardless of the outcome. 46 21.10%
I would vote against it, and leave if California seceded. 84 38.53%
Voters: 218. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-24-2017, 06:25 PM
 
9,891 posts, read 11,682,649 times
Reputation: 22084

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No matter what, California will never be allowed to become a separate nation. To do so, it has to be approved by 38 other states, and that will be the big hurdle that those that want a separate nation for California will never overcome.

Reasons:

1: The rest of the nation, are not going to give up the military bases for ships, etc. in California. They will refuse for California to pull out of the nation, for their own security reasons.

2: If a separate nation, California could make alliances with countries not acceptable to the United States allowing them to put military bases in California, and that fact alone is going to keep California from becoming a separate nation.

And that is just two reasons that California will never get permission from the rest of the country to become a separate country.

And remember when some states decided they were going to pull out of the Union, and have a separate country without the U.S. approval. Remember what happened then, and would happen today if California tried that.

 
Old 02-24-2017, 06:27 PM
 
911 posts, read 587,272 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoodUsernamesWereTaken View Post
The whole point of a secession, or one of the points rather, is to address outstanding issues in the state.

Well there you go. you've let the cat out of the bag so anyone can see it.
 
Old 02-24-2017, 06:33 PM
 
911 posts, read 587,272 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtrader View Post
No matter what, California will never be allowed to become a separate nation. To do so, it has to be approved by 38 other states, and that will be the big hurdle that those that want a separate nation for California will never overcome.

Reasons:

1: The rest of the nation, are not going to give up the military bases for ships, etc. in California. They will refuse for California to pull out of the nation, for their own security reasons.

2: If a separate nation, California could make alliances with countries not acceptable to the United States allowing them to put military bases in California, and that fact alone is going to keep California from becoming a separate nation.

And that is just two reasons that California will never get permission from the rest of the country to become a separate country.

And remember when some states decided they were going to pull out of the Union, and have a separate country without the U.S. approval. Remember what happened then, and would happen today if California tried that.
Are you aware that the US has and always has had military bases on foreign shores by treaties?

Are you aware that Canada and Mexico could allow foreign bases belonging to countries antagonistic to the US - but they never have? Know why?

Do you realize that every nation that has ever become independent as scores upon scores have, has been able to host foreign bases as you suggest? And yet they acheived independence? Wonder how that worked?

Lots of deep thinking in this thread.
 
Old 02-24-2017, 07:14 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,254,548 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoodUsernamesWereTaken View Post
The whole point of a secession, or one of the points rather, is to address outstanding issues in the state.

And how will that occur? Who will be the new leaders and how will they be any different than the ones CA has now?

The theory sounds good, but there has to be something radically different in the plans than just becoming a new Nation. If no change in Leadership, Governance and the ideology that has causes the outstanding issues to occur, nothing else will change. It is a nice dream but has no real basis for saying it will make it better. The vast bulk of the problem in CA stem from the choices people in CA have been making, in regards to who runs the State. What on earth makes anyone think that will change?
 
Old 02-24-2017, 07:27 PM
 
9,891 posts, read 11,682,649 times
Reputation: 22084
California is a place, with a rapidly changing population.

The ethnic group with the largest numbers in the state, are Hispanic and in a few years will be over 50% of the population of the state. The Hispanic and Asian population of California combined. are in excess of 50% of the states population. In the few years that the population has grown by 50% in California, the white population of California has decreased by 5,000,000 people as the white population has fled the state.

As the Population has soared in big numbers, the U.S. citizen changes in California has been dramatic. More people are moving to other states from California, at a faster rate than they are moving in from other states into California. Without the immigrants both legal and illegal moving into the state, the population would have been falling instead of increasing at the rapid rate it has.

A big reason for the people moving from California to other states (Texas the biggest gainer from Californians moving there) is they are following their jobs as they are moving out of California and taking their employees with them.

All this upheaval is the reason that California has by far the highest poverty rate in the nation, and uses about 1/3rd of all U.S. poverty dollars with only 12% of the population.

This is why the Real Unemployment Rate the U-6 rate, is so high in California compared to the rest of the country.

California is clear down at the bottom of the barrel, for Business Friendly regulations and laws. It takes 1 1/2 years, to get a permit to build a new factory, or to enlarge one in California, and can be done in days in other places in the country. Companies do not want to take a year and a half to get permits before breaking ground and spending $2,500,000 dollars to get the clearance. That is why Tesla is building their big battery factory with a huge number of jobs in Nevada. They need the batteries to be coming off of the assembly line in 1.5 years. If they built it in California it would be a minimum of 1.5 years to get the permit, and 1.5 years to build the plant. That fact alone sent multiple thousand jobs to Nevada, instead of in California as they would have preferred.

Apple is putting their Billion Dollar lap top factory in Texas for the same reason. They can save about 35% of the cost to build a lap top being in Texas over being in the Bay Area of California where they would prefer. Being in Texas, leaves them the ability to cut the price of the lap tops, pay higher wages, or maybe do both and the additional money saved can be more profit to them.

California has big problems, and the Exit talk, only tends to hide the big problems ahead. It is not going to happen, as the 38 states that would be required to approve them exiting the U.S. is not going to be possible to accomplish. It is a smoke screen to keep people from seeing the real problems ahead.
 
Old 02-24-2017, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,848 posts, read 14,027,168 times
Reputation: 16512
https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state
45.8% of California is FEDERALLY OWNED.
Any secession will have only 54.2% of California.
As to paying off the FEDS, what would Californians use?
Federal Reserve notes are worthless IOUs (since 1933).
And there are not enough FRNS in circulation.
California's gold is insufficient to pay off the FEDS, too.

. . . . . . . . . .
http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.45 trillion in circulation as of April 6, 2016, of which $1.4 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.($4,375 per capita )
 
Old 02-24-2017, 08:51 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,572 posts, read 27,266,776 times
Reputation: 9002
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
The budget is claimed to be balanced and then .. we hear of a deficit. They leave out a lot.

But OK, lets assume not a single one of the current Gov't membership would be automatically in place. Who would be? How would they be elected and what makes you think the same people would not get elected? What would change that? Just because a small group of different people is pushing it does not mean the same "popular" politicians would not be elected and then ... it does not get better. Who would run with any chance of winning against the established politicians?

The "theory" is nice, but the practical application needs to be publicly demonstrated,/revealed. Otherwise you have .. no Gov't at all. I am looking for real explanations about how it would work AND be any better, not worse.

What is the "real" reason for leaving the US?
One of the damages looking at things from only an American perspective is that you are unable to look at the bigger overall picture and this post demonstrates that quite well. Would some of the same people get elected, sure. What you keep missing is that no longer being a US state would allow California to become a federal rather than unitary system which by it's very structure under a federal system, maintains the national two party system. With states of it's own, new political parties would form hell, one is already forming, the CNP we've spoken about earlier.
 
Old 02-24-2017, 08:53 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,572 posts, read 27,266,776 times
Reputation: 9002
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
What is the "real" reason for leaving the US?
You're only asking this to start another useless debate as this has been addressed throughout this thread.
 
Old 02-24-2017, 08:54 PM
 
911 posts, read 587,272 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
And how will that occur? Who will be the new leaders and how will they be any different than the ones CA has now?

The theory sounds good, but there has to be something radically different in the plans than just becoming a new Nation. If no change in Leadership, Governance and the ideology that has causes the outstanding issues to occur, nothing else will change. It is a nice dream but has no real basis for saying it will make it better. The vast bulk of the problem in CA stem from the choices people in CA have been making, in regards to who runs the State. What on earth makes anyone think that will change?
You keep assuming the same things over and over even after it is very clearly explained to you that a new country is a new country. Not old leadership. The "governance and ideology" that caused the outstanding issues will be gone. They consist of both the current federal control and the state control. Neither of which will be in play. Nothing will be the same. The choices the people have been making are made within the structure of being a United States state, controlled by existing political systems. That would cease to exist.

"What on earth makes anyone think that will change?" you must be joking. What made people think things would change when Obama and now Trump said they would? People will believe all kinds of things they want to hear. Whats different about change in this scenario is - independence mandates complete change at all levels by definition. There is no way things can't change. Drastically.
 
Old 02-24-2017, 08:55 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,572 posts, read 27,266,776 times
Reputation: 9002
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtrader View Post
No matter what, California will never be allowed to become a separate nation. To do so, it has to be approved by 38 other states, and that will be the big hurdle that those that want a separate nation for California will never overcome.

Reasons:

1: The rest of the nation, are not going to give up the military bases for ships, etc. in California. They will refuse for California to pull out of the nation, for their own security reasons.

2: If a separate nation, California could make alliances with countries not acceptable to the United States allowing them to put military bases in California, and that fact alone is going to keep California from becoming a separate nation.

And that is just two reasons that California will never get permission from the rest of the country to become a separate country.

And remember when some states decided they were going to pull out of the Union, and have a separate country without the U.S. approval. Remember what happened then, and would happen today if California tried that.
You had me up to here. Not every country operates on a ready to attack the world mentality like the US and it is this mentality that is one of the differences.
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